This

is

Lynns,

this

is

Russ,

and

we're

married.

Are

we?

Yep.

Since

2013,

we're

the

hosts

of

the.

Unfiltered

Union

podcast

where

we

discuss

popular

headlines

and

interview

interesting

people.

Our

opinions

may

vary,

but

we

will

never

censor

our

guests

or

our

viewpoints.

Welcome

to

the

Unfiltered

Union.

We

have

another

guest.

Good

job.

I'm

supposed

to

do

the

inner

or

the.

The

intro

this

time?

You.

You

volunteered

to

do

the

intro

this

time?

No,

I

didn't,

but.

Okay.

All

right.

Today

we

have

with

us

Kaylee

Grant,

AKA

Kay.

She

grew

up

outside

Philadelphia

with

a

deep

love

and

longing

for

the

ocean

and

the

curiosity

of

its

inhabitants.

Kay

has

a

Bachelor

of

Science

in

ecotourism

and

completed

the

Marine

option

program

at

the

University

of

Hawaii

as

well

as

a

shark,

a

shark

specialty

course

with

Queensland

University

and

Cornell

University.

She's

been

living

in

Hawaii

for

the

past

12

years

and

is

able

and

was

able

to

further

her

love

of

the

ocean

and

learn

invaluable

information

about

safety

and

sharks

from

the

amazing

team

at

One

Ocean

Diving.

From

2015

to

2020,

K

has

guided

ocean

goers

of

all

walks

of

life

at

home

in

Hawaii

as

well

as

around

the

globe.

With

her

Kaimana

Expeditions.

Kay

is

passionate

about

connecting

people

to

the

ocean

in

a

deeper

way

and

inspiring

others

to

change

their

daily

habits

to

better

benefit

the

natural

world.

On

board,

K

will

teach

you

how

to

properly

interact

with

animals,

safely

interact

with

sharks,

the

importance

of

cutting

out

single

use

plastics,

which

sunscreens

are

safe

for

the

reef,

and

more.

Good

job,

guys.

That

was

a

struggle

for

me.

We're

growing

here.

I

don't

know

how

to

read.

Read

good,

but

I

mean

all

that

to

say.

Let's

start

from

the

very

beginning

with

you

here,

Kay.

You

talk

about

how

you

grew

up

outside

of

Philadelphia.

Yeah,

Philadelphia

Ocean

to

Hawaii

is

big.

So

what.

What

started

your

interest

in

the

ocean

and

wanting

to

interact

with

animals

of

the

sea?

Well,

my

dog

is

like,

climbing

under

me.

Thank

you

guys

so

much

for

having

me.

I'm

excited

to

be

here.

Yeah.

I

grew

up

outside

of

Philadelphia

in

an

area

called

Bucks

county.

And

so

I

spent

my

summers

as

a

kid

going

to

Jersey

Shore

just

like

you

see

on

tv.

And

I

loved

whales

when

I

was

growing

up.

We

are

in

the

generation

of

or

I'm

in

the

generation

of

growing

up

to

Free

Willie

and

the

Little

Mermaid.

And,

you

know,

I

just

loved

whales.

So

my

dad

would

take

me

whale

watching

off

of

the

coast

of

Massachusetts.

And

from

there,

you

know,

I

kind

of

just

went

through

the

typical

go

to

school,

get

a

Job,

sort

of

routine.

After

I

was

a

kid,

I

didn't

really

realized

that

working

in

the

ocean

was

necessarily

a

possibility

for

me.

But

after

I

graduated

college,

I

moved

out

to

Hawaii.

And

from

there

I

was

fully

surrounded

by

the

ocean.

So

it

was

inevitable

that

I

revisited

this

love

of

the

ocean

and

marine

life.

So

from

there,

I

started

working

as

a

dive

master

and

taking

people

scuba

diving.

And

I

remember

on

my

first

scuba

dive,

when

I

was

learning

how

to

scuba

dive,

I

found

a

shark

tooth

in

the

sand

and

I,

like,

brought

it

up

to

my

instructor

and

I

was

like,

look,

this

is

so

cool.

And

he

was

like,

whoa,

that's

awesome,

because

what

a

special,

rare

find.

And

I

think

that

was

a

sign

that

they

were

going

to

be

in

my

life

and

very

important

to

me.

So

then

I

went

on

to

work

with

sharks

on

the

north

shore

of

Oahu

for

many

years

before

finally

starting

my

own

company

called

Kaimana

Ocean

Safari

out

here

in

Kona

with

my

husband

Cam.

That's

awesome.

Do

you

still

have

that

shark

tooth?

I

do.

Oh,

yes,

Amongst

many

more

that

I've

collected

now

over

the

years.

Yeah,

that's.

That's

a

pass

down

through

the

generation

type

deal

right

there.

Absolutely.

It

was

certainly

a

very

special

omen.

So

I

actually

put

on

a

necklace

and

I'd

been

wearing

it

around

for

quite

a

while.

Right

on.

So,

so

what.

What

drew

you

to

Hawaii?

I

mean,

you

kind

of

gave

us

some

hints

that

working

with

the

ocean

and

stuff.

But

like

I

said

before,

Philadelphia,

Hawaii.

That's.

That's

long.

A

lot

of

miles.

Yeah,

that's

pretty

far.

Oh,

yeah.

That's

a

really

big

leap.

And

I

was

not

as

well

traveled

as

I

am

now.

Coming

out

of

college,

I

had

never

been

more

west

of

than

Texas,

so

that

was

a

huge

leap

for

me.

Throughout

my

college

career,

I

did

some

volunteering

programs

where

I

went

down

to

Central

and

South

America

and

volunteered

to

help

teach

kids

English

and

things

like

that.

So

during

that,

it

just.

I

think

travel

is

a

way

to

really

expand

your

mind

and

teach

you

so

much

about

the

world

around

you.

And

for

me,

that

was

definitely

the

case.

I

was

like,

wow,

there's

so

much

more

to

the

world

than

this,

like,

county

that

I

grew

up

in.

And

so

when

I

graduated

college,

I

was

like,

okay,

like,

I

want

to

keep

going.

I

want

to

keep

traveling

and

see

what

else

is

out

there.

So

I

didn't

necessarily

have

a

plan.

My

degree

is

in

ecotourism,

so

I

kind

of

knew

that

I

wanted

to

take

people

on

adventures

one

day.

I

didn't

exactly,

at

the

time,

know

what

that

looked

like.

I

really.

I

value

experiences

a

lot,

and

I

think

that

they

can

really

shape

and

change

people.

So

that

is

what

I

wanted

to

give

people.

That's

what

I

wanted

to

do

with

my

purpose.

And

then,

luckily,

I

was

able

to

combine

that

with

the

ocean.

But

I

was

just

looking

for

my

next

adventure,

essentially,

and

what

I

wanted

to

do

next.

And

I

was

looking

at

places

all

over

the

world,

but

I

had

a

friend

that

I

was

in

college

with,

and

he

was

like,

yeah,

you

can

come,

like,

crash

on

my

couch

for.

Until

you

find

a

place.

And

I

was

like,

you're

in

Hawaii.

Okay,

that

doesn't

sound

like

a

bad

idea.

I

had

about,

like,

$3,000

in

my

pocket

and

three

suitcases,

and

I

went

out,

I

bought

a

scooter.

I

was,

like,

on

a

moped

for

the

first

couple

years

of

living

out

there,

and

I

got

a

job

at

a

restaurant.

And

that's

kind

of

like

how

it

all

started.

I

mean,

that's

awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I

mean,

the

plane

ticket

alone,

though,

probably

ate

up

a

lot

of

your

savings.

I

know.

I

was

just

like

a

young,

broke

college

student,

but

it's

almost

like.

Yeah,

just

things

were

so

simple,

like,

way

more

simple

back

then,

so

it

was

easier

than

it

would

be

for

me

to

do

something

like

that

now.

So

I'm

glad

I

took

the

leap

at

that

time

in

my

life,

for

sure.

I

mean,

we.

We.

I'm

not

saying

we

did

a.

A

huge

leap

like

that,

but

we

went

from

Virginia

to

Florida,

and

that

was

rough.

So

bad.

Yeah,

it

was.

It

was

awful.

I

don't.

I

recommend

people

to

check

out

Florida,

but

moving

across

state

lines,

you

gotta.

You

gotta

really

think

about

it

before

you

do

it

and

kind

of

plan

because

it

was

rough

for

us.

It's

hard.

Oh,

yeah,

for

sure.

And

I

think

with

Florida,

we

have

all

of

our

favorite

things

about

living

here.

Kay.

What

would

you

say

is

your

favorite

thing

about

Hawaii

living?

Oh,

my

gosh.

Definitely

the

ocean.

Especially,

like,

out

here

in

Kona.

It's

just.

It's

really

my

favorite

place

to

dive,

so.

Very

lucky

that

I

live

somewhere

that

is

my

favorite

place

to

dive.

And

also

the

aloha

spirit,

you

know,

whenever

I'm,

like,

back

on

the

east

coast

or

on

the

mainland,

I

can

definitely

feel

the

energy

of

the

hustle

and

bustle

around

me

a

little

bit

more.

Just

kind

of

like

that

slow

pace,

that

island

life.

The

aloha

spirit

is

definitely

very

prevalent

here.

And,

you

know,

you

can

feel

it

when

you're

just

here.

Right.

It's

a

culture

thing.

And

we

never

had

A

big

culture

scene

in

Virginia,

where

we're

from.

But

down

here,

Tampa

is

like

that.

It's

super

weird.

Like

the

community

here

is,

is,

is

big

and

the

sports

teams

are

actually

rooted

for

here.

Unlike

in

Virginia,

everybody

only

watches

hockey

there.

But

yeah,

I

think

it's

hard

to

realize

there

is

culture

where

you're

from,

but

other

people

would

probably

see

it

if

they

went,

that's

true.

Virginia,

you

know,

it's

just

like

we're

so

used

to

our

own

like,

upbringing.

Oh

yeah,

yeah,

I

get,

I

can

see

that

for

sure.

Because

Virginia

is,

what

do

they

call

it,

the

birthplace

of

presidents.

And

there's

a

lot

of,

a

lot

of

history

in

Virginia,

but

it's

like

we

lived

there

all

our

life.

So,

you

know,

we

were,

we

were

poked

and

prodded

at

school

like

you're

from

the

place

where

all

the

presidents

came

from.

And

I

guess

it

just

falls

on

deaf

ears

after

a

while.

Well,

diving

in

here.

Haha.

So

how

did

you

really

get

your

start

with

shark

diving?

Like

where

would

you

like

pinpoint?

I

mean,

you

mentioned

the

tooth.

Is

that

kind

of

what

led

you

to,

hey,

maybe

I

can

find

sharks

in

the

wild?

Yeah,

for

sure.

I

always

tell

people,

like,

because

people

will

ask

all

the

time

and

sort

of

over

complicated,

like,

how

did

you

do

this?

What

should

I

do?

You

know,

what

exactly

is

your

job

and

where

did

you

learn

and

all

these

things.

And

it's

actually

just

like

way

more

simple

than

you

think,

you

know,

just

go

to

the

ocean.

Just

go

in

the

ocean

as

much

as

you

can

and

you're

bound

to

start

seeing

some

things

and

learning

a

lot.

The

sharks

are

the

best

teachers

too.

And

basically

whatever

subject

it

is

that

you're

interested

in,

just

spend

time

hanging

out

with

them.

Look

at

the

guy,

my

octopus

teacher,

right?

And

how

he

was

able

to

like

have

this

whole

form,

this

whole

connection

and

do

this

whole

documentary

just

by

going

out

there

every

day

and

spending

time

looking

for

this

octopus.

So

it's

kind

of

like

the

same

thing,

you

know.

And

in

Hawaii

there

are

areas

that

are

more

prevalent

for

sharks.

The

North

Shore

of

Oahu

being

one

of

them,

but

really

anywhere.

So

mine

really

started

with

scuba

diving.

And

I

always

recommend

if

people

are

looking

to

have

a

job

in

the

ocean,

to

start

with

scuba

diving,

go

out,

get

your

dive

master.

I

recommend

padi

and

just

work

in

the

industry.

If

you

become

the

person

that's

taking

the

people

out,

you're

going

to

be

out

so

often

and

you're

going

to

see

more

things

and

learn

more

stuff.

So

just

making

sure

spending

time

in

the

ocean

and

taking

people

out

there.

And

over

time,

you

know,

you

definitely

learn

a

thing

or

two.

So

I

have

a

question,

and

it

is

around.

The

public

perception

of

sharks

is

nothing

but

fear.

But

you

swim

with

them.

You

know

them

a

lot

better

than,

you

know,

the

Discovery

Channel

feeding

somebody

who

sits

on

the

couch

and

watches

bad

all

day.

And

we've

seen

videos

of

you

touched

it.

Yeah,

yeah,

right.

So.

So

what

I'm

trying

to

get

at

is

what,

why

are

they

important

and

what

does

the

ocean

look

like

without

sharks?

Because

they

are

a

key

player

to

the

ecosystem

and

people

don't

tend

to

understand

that.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well,

regarding

the

fear

of

sharks,

I

think

it's

a

normal

thing.

They're

wild

animals,

they're

apex

predators.

And

I

never

want

to

become

someone

that

preaches

that

they're

puppy

dogs

because

it's

just

really

not

the

case.

Right.

They

should

be,

you

know,

I

wouldn't

say

like,

feared,

demonized,

but

like,

feared

to,

like,

a

healthy

degree.

That

it's

like,

okay,

I

have

respect

for

that

animal

and

that

is

a

wild

animal

and,

like,

it's

their

home,

it's

their

ocean

and

all

of

those

good

things.

So,

you

know,

a

lot

of

the

videos

I

put

out,

sometimes

it's

like,

hey,

they're

not

the

man

eating

monsters.

Because

after

all

the

time

that

I've

spent

in

the

water

with

them,

like,

if

they

were,

I

would

not

be

alive.

But

then

I

also

want

to,

like,

show

people,

but,

yes,

they

are

predators,

and

we

shouldn't

just

take

that

for

granted

and

do

things

that

are

sort

of,

like,

stupid

and

sort

of

asking

for

it.

So

there's

a

very

fine

line

there.

And

I

think

once

people

learn,

okay,

and

see

them

for

themselves,

especially

getting

to

go

in

the

water

with

sharks,

they're

like,

okay,

they're

not

man

eating

monsters.

Their

demeanor

is

totally

different

than

what

the

movies

and

these,

like,

overly

dramatized

things

portray.

And

then

when

they

learn,

okay,

they're

really

important

for

the

ocean's

ecosystem.

They

help

regulate

all

of

the

fish

populations.

They

remove

the

dead,

dying,

weak

individuals

to

leave

only

the

strong

to

survive

and

reproduce.

They

help

keep

everything

in

balance.

Everything

in

the

ecosystem,

everything

in

that

food

chain

has

a

role

from

the

bottom

to

the

top.

And

sharks

being

at

the

top,

they

have

a

very

important

role

as

well.

And

if

we

remove

them

from

the

ecosystem,

we

create

what's

called

a

trophic

cascade,

where

everything

below

is

actually

severely

affected

as

well.

So

they

are

really

important

for

the

ecosystem.

And

then

people

also

learn,

hey,

okay,

so

there's

this

animal.

They're

not

as

Scary

as

the

media

portrays,

they're

really

important

for

the

ecosystem.

And

then

they

learn,

wow,

they're

being

killed

at

a

rate

of

over

100

million

sharks

per

year

for

their

meat,

for

their

fins,

as

bycatch.

And

all

of

that

was

sort

of

a

factor

for

me

to

be

like,

okay,

I

want

to

do

something

about

it

and

try

to

save

and

protect

them

or

just

show

the

general

public

how

awesome

they

are

and

teach

them

all

of

this

stuff.

So

it's

been

really

cool

because

I

do

think

that

there

has

been

a

bit

of

a

shift

in

people

understanding

sharks

and

falling

in

love

with

sharks,

and

it's

been

cool

to

sort

of

be

a

part

of

that

in

a

way.

Yeah.

I

mean,

do

you

think

the

media

plays

a

part

in

the

misconception

of

sharks,

or

is

there

something

else

at

play?

Absolutely.

For

sure.

The

media,

like,

it's

still

so

frustrating

because

I

do

feel

like

we

have

come

a

long

way,

like

I

was

saying,

but

I

think

that

we

still

have

a

long

way

to

go.

Even

when

you

see

what

I

would

call

a

shark

encounter,

where

maybe

somebody's

swimming

and

a

shark

comes

by,

like,

there's

times

where

that

will

still

be

labeled

an

attack

and

the

shark's

literally

doing

nothing.

It's

just

swimming

in

the

ocean,

just

lives

there.

Like

you're

in

his

house.

Yeah,

exactly.

So

that

is

really

frustrating.

And

I

think

the

mainstream

media

definitely

likes

to

sensationalize

and

overly

dramatize

everything.

And

definitely

with

sharks,

getting

that

headline,

you

know,

attack

and

creating

that

fear

is

just

going

to

sell

more

views

and

more,

you

know,

attention.

So

I

still

think

that

we

have

a

long

way

to

go.

But

that's

sort

of.

Yeah.

Another

topic

on

the

media

and

how

terrible

they

can

be

with

so

many

different

topics.

The

sharks

fall

victim

to

that,

too.

Yeah,

for

sure.

Yep.

So

you

said

they're.

They're

killed

a

lot.

I

mean,

overfishing

and

things

like

that.

But

you

said

they're

killed

for

their

fins

and

stuff.

Can

you

kind

of

explain

why

they're

killed

for

that?

Because

I

know,

at

least

in

the

US

I

don't

think

shark

fin

soup

is

a

island,

much

of

a

delicacy

here.

Yeah,

I

had

never

heard

of

shark

fin

soup

before

moving

to

Hawaii

and

getting,

you

know,

a

little

closer

to

Asia,

where

it's

mainly

served

as

China.

But

we

can't

even

just

blame,

you

know,

one

particular

country,

because

so

many

countries

around

the

world

are

contributing

to

the

harvesting

of

the

fins.

So

it's

really

a

global

issue,

for

sure.

But

shark

fin

soup

is

sort

of

like

a

delicacy.

Something

that

you

would

have

on

special

occasions

like

weddings.

And

it's

just

the

fin

of

the

shark.

So

much

of

the

shark

when

they're

finning

them

is

wasted,

often

tossed

back

into

the

ocean

and

disregarded.

Obviously

it's

best

if

you

do

kill

something

to

utilize

the

entire

animal

versus

just

a

small

portion

of

their

body.

This

portion

of

their

body

has

no

like,

taste,

no

nutritional

value

even.

And

in

fact

it's.

Shark

meat

is

very

high

in

mercury.

So

it's,

it's

actually

bad

for

you.

I

do

think

that

there's

going

to

be

a

lot

of

changes

in

the

near

future.

And

there

already

has

been.

I

know

that

the

Chinese

government,

I

believe

they

banned

serving

shark

fin

soup

in

government

events.

So

that

is

a

step

in

the

right

direction.

They're

starting

to

like

recognize

it

maybe

a

bit.

So

we

just

want

to

keep

getting

that

word

out

there

and

let

people

know

what

it

is,

why

it's

harmful

for

the

sharks,

for

humans,

for

their

fins,

for

shark

fin

soup

and

their

meat.

And

a

third

one

is

bycatch

is

huge,

is

why

they're

being

killed

at

a

rate

of,

and

this

is

like

an

estimate,

it

could

be

way

more

than

this,

about

100

million

per

year.

And

they

think

that

some

estimates

say

it

could

be

over

200

million

per

year,

which

is

just

mind

blowing.

So

in

addition

to

the

shark

fin

soup,

there's

also

a

big

problem

with

how

we

fish

these

days.

We

just

fish

very

intimately,

indiscriminately.

We

have,

we've

become

really

good

at

fishing.

So

we're

able

to

catch

everything

basically

in

the

area.

And

that

leads

to

a

lot

of

animals

that

we

didn't

even

intend

to

catch,

getting

caught

and

then

dying,

usually

fighting

on

that

line.

And

that

is

essentially

bycatch.

So

sharks

are

a

huge,

huge

target

in

bycatch

because

they

would

eat

the

same

things

that

a

tuna

would

eat.

So

if

we're

trying

to

catch

tuna

and

we

are

laying

out

thousands

of

baited

hooks

with

whatever

type

of

bait

to

catch

tuna,

you

know,

if

a

shark

swims

by,

they're

going

to

get

that

too.

And

the

problem

with

sharks

specifically

being

caught

as

bycatch

or

killed

for

their

fins

or

me

and

just

killed

in

general,

is

that

being

that

animal

at

the

top

of

the

food

chain,

they

do

have

a

slower

reproductive

rate.

They

don't

reproduce

as

quickly

as

something

in

the

lower

levels

to

replenish

their

population.

So

they're

having

a

really

hard

time

obviously

keeping

up

with

These

numbers

like

100

million

sharks

per

year.

So

that

is

pretty

much

the

plight

of

sharks.

Yeah.

It's

terrible.

I

mean,

on

top

of

their

slow,

I

guess,

offspring,

their

reproduction,

they

also

struggle,

I

guess,

with

having

multiple

in

the

womb.

Right.

They,

they

not

all

make

it.

Is

that

a

true

thing

or

did

I

just

see

that

on

tick

tock?

I

think

that's

great

Whites,

right?

Yeah.

Reproduction

is

definitely

different

with

each

individual

species,

but

a

lot

that

give

live

births

in

the

womb,

sometimes

they

can

actually

eat

each

other

a

little

bit

before

they

come

out.

And

then,

you

know,

when

they

come

out,

depending

on

the

species,

like

they're

small,

they're

more

like

fish

size,

they're

more

like

bai

size.

So

then

they

have

to

worry

about

other

predators,

especially

like

larger

sharks

going

after

them.

So

there's

a

lot

that

is

going

into

it,

you

know,

and

you're

talking

about

animals

that

are.

A

lot

of

species

are

having

live

births

versus

spawning,

you

know,

like

thousands

of

eggs

and

things

like

that.

So

it's

just

a

lot

harder

for

them

to

keep

up

with.

And

there's

usually

casualties,

you

know,

in

each

kind

of

litter

of

pups,

so.

And

baby

sharks

are

called

pups,

which

is

so

cute.

So

we

should

love

sharks

just

for

that.

Yeah,

right.

As

soon

as

you

said

that,

I

was

like,

she

said

pups,

they

have

puppy

teeth,

right?

Little

baby

teeth.

Yeah.

Well,

I

mean,

so

you

have

a

picture

behind

you

and

that

picture

behind

you,

you

are

swaying

with

a.

I'm

going

to

assume

it's

a

great

white.

It's

big.

Yes,

that

one

is

very

big.

That's

definitely

the

biggest

shark

with

teeth

that

I've

seen

ever.

Probably

like

the

biggest

shark

I've

seen

ever.

That

was

in

2019

and

we.

I

was

in

Hawaii,

off

the

coast

of

Oahu,

about

12

miles,

and

there

was

a

dead

whale

carcass.

So

a

lot

of

people

are

always

surprised

to

hear

that

there

was

a

great

white

in

Hawaii.

That's

crazy.

We

do

have

great

whites

here.

They're

just

extremely

rare

to

see

because

the

water

is

quite

warm

for

them

and

so

they

like

to

stay

down

a

little

deeper

where

it's

cold.

But

a

lot

of

them

will

kind

of

follow

the

great

whites

out

from

California,

out

Hawaii,

and

hopefully,

you

know,

or

hopefully

running

across

a

dead

one

and

then

they're

able

to

gorge

themselves

and

really

get

stuffed

and

a

lot

of

nutrients

and

kind

of

replenish

that.

So

we

were

lucky

enough

to

find

the

dead

whale

and

I

did

not

expect

something

like

a

great

white

to

pop

up.

But

that

was

such

an

amazing

experience.

We

actually

recently

had

another

dead

whale

in

Kona,

so

that

would

be

my

third

over

the

12

years

that

I've

lived

here.

So,

you

know,

whales

die.

It's

always

sad.

Of

course,

they

die

a

lot,

just

of

natural

causes,

just

like

anything

else.

Sometimes

human

causes

too,

of

course,

but

they

feed

an

ecosystem

so.

Well,

a

dead

whale

feeds

an

ecosystem

for

something

like

10

years

because

every,

you

know,

you

get

the

sharks

and

the

fish

and

things

like

that,

but

then

as

it

sinks,

it's

decomposing

and

it

hits

the

sea

floor

and

there's

all

types

of

other

decomposers

down

there

that

are

feeding

on

it

for

ages

until

the

bones

are

decomposing

then.

So

it's

a

really

fascinating

kind

of

event

to

get

to

see.

But,

yeah,

great

white

came

up

and

she

was

feeding

on

the

dead

whale

and

she

was

totally,

like,

relaxed

and

chill.

Probably

many

reasons

for

that.

She

may

have

been

pregnant.

You

know,

do

you

want

to

run

around

attacking

stuff

when

you're

pregnant?

You

probably

just

want

to

lay

on

the

couch

and

eat.

She

also

had

a

huge

feast,

A

huge

dead

whale

that

was

providing

her

so

much

food

that

she

was

like,

I'm

not

gonna

mess

with

these,

like,

humans.

And

there

was

dolphins

there.

She's

like,

I'm

not

gonna

mess

with

these

dolphins.

I'm

just

gonna

go

for

this

big,

free,

easy

meal

here,

you

know,

with

this

dead

whale.

So

it

was

really

beautiful,

really

peaceful,

really

amazing

experience.

I'm

so

grateful

for,

but

definitely

not

something

I

would

recommend

that

somebody

should

just

think,

oh,

yeah,

mermaid

Kaylee

said

that

great

whites

are

safe

because

that

is

not

the

case.

You

know,

like

I

said,

any

shark

has

the

potential

to

be

dangerous.

They're

not

little

puppy

dogs.

And

especially

something

like

a

great

white.

They're

just

so

huge

and

massive.

If

they

did

something

like

an

exploratory

bite

to

find

out

what

you

are,

that

could

mean

that

your

limb

is

gone.

That

could

mean

that

you

die.

And

there

were

great

whites

that

I

was

able

to

swim

with

in

New

Zealand

inside

of

a

cage

that

were

behaving

a

lot

different

than

this

beautiful

big

lady

here.

They

were

smaller,

juvenile,

very

athletic,

and

breaching

as

they're

hunting

in

the

waters,

murkier.

And

yeah,

I

was

totally

fine

being

in

a

cage.

So

I

would

say,

go

try

to

swim

with

them

in

a

cage.

That

is

where

you're

going

to

be

safe

and

you're

going

to

get

to

see

them.

And

they're

really,

really

amazing.

And

this

was

sort

of

like

a

once

in

a

lifetime

moment

with

like

a

very

once

in

a

lifetime

type

of

shark.

And

you

got

a

picture.

It's

to

prove

it.

Yeah,

exactly.

You

have

to.

You

Gotta

have

that.

Yeah,

right,

right.

I

mean,

I

think

even

with

a

cage,

I

think

my

heart

rate

would

start

to

rise.

Right.

And

I

would

start

to

feel

the

adrenaline

racing

through

me.

I

mean,

what,

what

would

be

your

advice

to

someone

who's

either

in

a

cage

or

free

diving

and

encounters

a

shark?

Like

how,

how

do

you

stay

calm?

I

know,

well,

staying

calm

is

probably

the

hardest

part,

but

the

most

important

part,

because

they

can

really,

like,

they're

very

good

at

sort

of

reading

energy

because

how

they

communicate

with

each

other

even

is

through

body

language.

So

staying

calm

is

going

to

be

utmost

important.

If

you

panic,

that's

not,

that's

the

worst

thing

that

you

can

do

essentially.

So

as

best

you

can,

just

stay

calm,

just

realize,

hey,

this

is

a

shark.

This

is

where

they

live.

You

know,

hopefully

they're

not

doing

anything

aggressive,

they're

just

kind

of

hanging

out

there.

So

stay

calm,

stay

relaxed.

Because

if

you

start

splashing,

panicking,

flailing,

then

you

look

eye

catching

the

sharks

and

be

like,

okay,

is

that

something

that's

hurt

or

injured?

I

should

probably

go

like

check

that

out

a

little

closer.

So

stay

nice

and

calm.

Then

you

want

to

make

eye

contact

with

the

shark.

And

I

know

most

people

can't

even

make

eye

contact

with

like

the

Starbucks

barista

these

days,

but

make

eye

contact

with

the

shark,

you

want

to

look

it

in

their

eye

because

you

look

more

like

a

predator

that

way.

It's

very

similar

all

of

these

things

to

what

we

hear

about

bears,

except

we

just

hear

it

more

and

it

makes

more

sense

for

us

because

bears

live

on

land

like

we

do.

We

hear,

you

know,

say,

hey,

bear,

get

big.

Look

at

it.

Don't

turn

your

back

and

run

away.

That's

going

to

make

the

bear

want

to

chase

you.

It's

kind

of

the

same

thing

with

the

shark.

Look

at

the

shark,

get

big,

don't

splash,

flail,

any

sudden

movements,

but

you

can

slowly

back

away,

but

just

go

backwards

while

you're

looking

at

it.

Okay.

And

then

if

the

shark

is

coming

up

to

you,

you

can

stick

your

fin

out

towards

the

shark.

Maybe

you

have

like

your

GoPro

pole

on

you,

maybe

you

have

a

surfboard.

If

you

can

put

something

between

you

and

the

animal,

obviously

that's

going

to

be

a

really

great

barrier.

And

if

not,

of

course

there

is

the

redirecting

with

your

hand

technique,

which

obviously

I

wouldn't

recommend

for

someone

to

just

go

out

and

try

that

doesn't

have

this

experience.

But

in

an

emergency

situation,

if

that's

all

you

have

on

you,

you

want

to

push

on

top

of

their

head

and

kind

of

push

them

away

like

a

little

heisman

over

top

of

them,

and,

yeah,

you

know,

slowly

back

away

and

get

out

of

the

water.

But

what

a

lot

of

people

don't

realize

is

that

it

can

be

really

easy

to

avoid

a

shark

encounter

before

you

even

get

in

the

water.

One

of

the

things

you

can

do,

look

around.

If

the

water

looks

pretty

murky,

you

probably

want

to

avoid

swimming

in

it.

If

you

can

go

in

groups,

if

you

have

more

people

around

you,

you

might

look

more

intimidating

to

a

shark.

You

have

more

people

to

look

around.

Watch

your

back.

Don't

go

in

anywhere

where

people

are

fishing.

Sometimes

you'll

see

people

fishing

from

land,

from

piers,

or

even

a

dive

flag

out

there

could

indicate

somebody

spearfishing.

If

there's

dead

fish

in

the

water,

that

could

attract

sharks

closer,

which

is

probably

pretty

obvious.

And

also,

after

heavy

rainfall,

you

want

to

avoid

swimming

because

there

could

be

really

heavy

rainfall

making

the

water

murky.

But

also,

if

there's

flooding,

can

sometimes

sweep

land

animals

from

land

out

to

sea.

That

does

happen

out

here

in

Hawaii.

And

we

will

see

the

sharks

coming

up

and,

you

know,

the

garbage

men

of

the

sea,

sort

of

with

the

tiger

sharks,

they'll

clean

it

all

up.

So

you

want

to

avoid

being

around.

That

at

all,

for

sure.

See,

I

never

thought

about

that,

like,

land

animals

being

in

the

shark

diet,

too.

I

mean,

crazy.

No,

it

makes

sense,

Especially

in

Florida.

In

Hawaii,

in

places

where

it

rains

a

lot

and

things

get.

What

is

it,

the

runoff

into

the

ocean.

It

rains

a

lot

here

and

we

get

freshwater

eels

floating

up

through

the

storm

drains.

It's

disgusting.

Yeah,

yeah.

My

husband.

My

husband

actually

captured

a

really

cool

drone

video

of

a

dead

boar

that

had

been

swept

out

a

couple

miles.

It

was

already

dead,

and

there

was

a

tiger

shark

eating

it.

So

it

definitely

happens

here.

We.

I've

heard

about

it

here

in

Kona

with

dead

goats,

dead

boar.

So

it's

definitely

something

that

happens.

Yeah,

it

makes

a

lot

of

sense.

For

sure.

It

really

does.

I

mean,

we've

talked

about

the

idea

of

bike

or

what

is

happening

with

bycatch

and

the

threats

that

are

occurring

to

sharks

at

this

point.

I

mean,

overall,

what

would

you

say

is

the

biggest

threat

to

ocean

life?

Well,

I

definitely

stand

by

saying

that

our

fishing

practices

need

to

change.

I'm

not

against

fishing.

My

husband's

a

spear

fisherman.

I

think

there's

so

many

ways,

especially

if

you

can

go

out

and

get

your

own

seafood,

that

we

can

make

it

really

sustainable.

So

just

the

ways

that

we

fish

need

to

change.

Obviously,

if

you

cannot

eat

fish

altogether,

that's

Amazing

or

you

know,

know

that

you're

going

out

and

getting

it

yourself.

But

it's

really

the

industries

that

we

need

to

take

a

look

at

and

how

they're

operating.

And

then,

you

know,

I'm

not

as

well

versed

in

all

of

this,

but

climate

change

is

for

sure

affecting

the

ocean

negatively.

It

makes

me

so

sad

because

I

just

see

on

like

all

my

Instagram

page

so

many

corals

around

the

world

are

just

like

bleaching.

And

that

just

feels

like

we're

gonna

lose

something,

like

we're

watching

it

before

our

eyes.

So,

yeah,

that

really

makes

me

sad.

Yeah,

I

mean,

and

speaking

about

corals,

we,

I

think

during

your

introduction

we

talk

about

sunscreens

that

are

safe

for

reefs.

I

mean,

do

you

have

any

recommendations

of

sunscreens

that

are

safe?

Yeah,

for

sure.

I

really

like

this

sunscreen

brand

called

All

Good.

They're

on

Amazon

too.

And

they

have,

I

think

they

have

like

tinted

sunscreens

too

and

like

the

regular

zinc.

But

what

makes

them

really

good

and

what

you

can

look

for,

if

you're

looking

for

sunscreens

is

a

great

way

to

do

your

part.

You

know,

it's,

it's

really

like

a

lot

of

the

big

countries

and

these

huge

corporations

that

need

to

make

the

change.

But

of

course

we

can

help

in

our

own

little

personal

ways

as

well.

But

this

company,

what

you'll

look

for

on

the

back,

as

you

may

know,

you

look

for

only

zinc

or

titanium

within

the

sunscreen

as

the

active

ingredient

should

be

right

there

at

the

top

on

the

back

of

the

sunscreen

bottle.

But

not

only

that,

what

a

lot

of

people

don't

know

is

you

also

want

to

look

for

non

nano

zinc,

zinc

oxide

that

will

just,

that

will

just

assure

that

the

particles

within

the

sunscreen,

the

particles

of

the

zinc,

are

not

small

enough

for

the

corals

to

consume

them

within

the

water.

So

that's

the

problem

with

the

chemical

sunscreen

is

the,

the

corals

are

actually

like

ingesting

the

chemicals

and

filtering

it.

So

with

the

non

nano

zinc,

the

particles

are

just

not

big

enough

to

actually

go

through

that

process.

So

it's

not

only

Z,

it's

non

nano

zinc,

but

even

just

zinc

is

better

than

the

chemicals.

So

there's

like

levels

of

how

good

your

sunscreen

can

be.

But

check

out

all

good.

They're

really,

they're

good.

They're

all

good.

They're

all

good.

That

nice

plug

there.

Good

branding

for

them.

Yeah,

yeah,

right.

Well,

I

think

sunscreen

is,

is

definitely

something

that

we

can

change.

But

you're

also

a

big

proponent

of

eliminating

single

use

plastics.

So

what

do

you

think

just

your

average

Joe

can

do

to

kind

of

remove

or

not

remove?

Because

we

can't.

Because

like

you

said,

big

industry,

they

use

plastic

for

everything.

But

what

can

we

do

to

kind

of

lower

our

plastic

footprint

to

help

our

oceans?

I

think

that

of

course

we

can

use

less

single

use

plastic.

Like

I

have

a

yeti

instead

of

the,

you

know,

water

bottles

and

we

just

use

a

filter

at

the

house.

And

there's

so

many

reasons

that's

so

much

better

for

you.

It's

like

there's

not

plastic

leaching

into

your

drinking

water

and

all

of

those

chemicals.

It's

cheaper

and

all

these

things.

So

I

think

everyone

should

definitely

just

be

using

a

reusable

water

bottle

to

start.

That's

a

great

place

to

start.

Reusable

bags.

Keep

them

in

your

car.

You

know,

say

no

to

straws.

Try

to

catch

them

at

the

restaurant

before

they

throw

them

on

the

table.

Because

that's

all

they

do

now

is

just

throw

it

on

the

table.

It's

like,

wait,

no,

I

don't

need

that.

So

those

things

are

really

great.

But

like

we

said,

it's

the

bigger

businesses

and

the

corporations

that

we

need

to

be

holding

accountable.

But

we

can

do

that

with

our

purchasing

power

and

just

us

as

consumers.

So

every

time

that

you

are

supporting

a

brand

that

is

doing

the

right

thing,

sustainable,

even

if

it

costs

a

little

bit

extra,

that

is

going

to

force

those

bigger

corporations

to

need

to

compete

and

keep

up

with

the

buying

power

that

we

have

and

the

dollar

sign.

Because

that's

unfortunately

what

drives

so

much

today

is

the

economics

around

it

all.

So,

yeah,

we

actually

can

make

a

big

difference

just

with

our

purchasing

power,

just

with

the

choices

that

we

make.

So

I

would

say,

you

know,

support

and

supporting

local

is

supporting

things

that

are

closer

to

you,

small

businesses

within

your

community.

And

think

about

that

economy.

And

then

when

you

do

need

to

buy

something,

see

if

there's

the

more

sustainable

choices

out

there

that

you

can

gravitate

towards

and

put

your

dollar

towards

that.

And

that

I

think

will

make

a

bigger

difference

over

time.

Yeah,

I

have

some.

I

have

a

recommendation

for

shampoo

and,

and

body

wash

and

deodorant.

Is

that

Ethic

Ethic

Ethic

Company?

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah,

that,

that

we

used

it.

Yep.

It's

awesome.

Yeah,

it

works

just

as

well.

It's

a

bar

of

soap.

Not

in

a

bottle,

it's

in

a

compostable

box.

Yeah.

I

was

surprised

at,

like,

how

well

that

worked

too,

because.

And

I

really

like

that

brand

also.

But

the

conditioner,

I

was

worried

because,

like,

I'm

in

the

ocean

all

the

time.

So

it's

like

real

salty,

real

crunchy

and

all

that

good

stuff.

But

it

worked

really

well.

The

condition,

right?

Like

it

was

like

better

than

regular

condition.

I

was

like,

whoa.

I'm

like

detangling

super

well,

so.

Yeah,

I

agree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I

mean,

I

don't

know

why

you.

There's

no

to

me

other

than

cost.

It

is

a

little

bit

more

expensive,

but

I

also

think

it

lasts

a

lot

longer

than

regular

shampoo

because

it's

just

like,

just

rub

it

real

fast

and

then

it

suds

up

and

then

you're

off

to

the

races.

But

I

like

that

stuff.

I

recommend

it.

And

then

like

bite

toothpaste.

That

works

well

too.

And

it's

even

better

for

you

supposedly

than

the

fluoride

based

stuff.

But

there's

no

plastic

tube

to

worry

about

and

yeah,

all

that.

They

also

have

laundry

detergent

sheets.

I

use

those

too.

And

like

when

you

start

actually

digging

into

some

of

these

products,

you're

like,

wow,

these

are

not

only

better

for

the

environment,

but

they're

better

for

me

too

because

they

don't

have

as

much

chemicals

and

all

this

stuff.

So

I

just

use

like

these

laundry

detergent

sheets

are

unscented

because

the

scents

and

added

chemicals

are

supposed

to

be

bad.

They're

on

your

skin

all

the

time

too.

And

then

I

just

put

like

essential

oils

in

the

laundry

and

it

smells

like

so

good

and.

Yeah,

it's

better

for

you.

Better

for

the

planet.

Comes

in

cardboard.

It's

like

a

no

brainer,

you

know?

For

sure.

Yeah,

the,

the,

the

pods

that

people

buy

that

you

throw

in

the

washing

machine,

they

don't

understand

that

that

pod

itself

is

plastic.

The

contain

the,

the.

Yeah,

the

actual

pod

that

the

case

dissolves

in

the,

in

the

laundry,

it's

like

that's

turning

into

microplastics

and

you

are

breathing

that

in.

Or

drinking

it.

Or

drinking

it.

Yeah,

it's.

Or

eating

it.

If

you

eat

fish,

like

all

the

fish.

Exactly.

Have

microplastics.

Yeah,

well,

I,

I

read

a

study.

It

was

about,

I

can't

remember,

like

9

out

of,

or

8

out

of

10

placentas

that

scientists

tested

from

women

had

microplastics

in

them.

It's

insane.

It's

like

we

have

to

change

that.

And

that's,

that's

for

our

health

too,

not

just

the

ocean,

you

know,

and.

All

this

stuff

has

like

forever

cancer

causing

chemicals

in

it

and

stuff

like

that.

So

really

when

we

make

these

suggestions,

it's

just

for

ourselves

as

well

as

the

planet

as

a

whole.

Like

we're

all

one

here,

you

know,

and

it

affects

all

of

us.

So

absolutely

important

to

make

those

changes.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Well,

I

mean,

to

kind

of

go

into

what

your

goal

for

Kaimana

is.

I

mean,

what.

What

overarching

message

do

you

want

to

send

with

the

Kaimana

Ocean

Safari?

Well,

with

Kaimana,

it's

so

exciting

for

me

to

be

able

to

take

people

out

there

to

do

this,

because,

like

I

said,

I

think

the

experience

and

actually

getting

out

there

is

what

inspires

people

to

make

the

changes

that

we're

talking

about

and

have

these

different,

like,

perception

changes

in

general,

People

just

tend

to

protect

what

they

love,

what

they

understand,

what

they

experienced

in

their

own

life.

So

getting

to

see

people

out

there

is

really

awesome.

And

then

while

we're

out

there,

we

can

talk

to

them

about

issues

like

this.

We

can

show

them

how

we're

contributing

to

our

local

research

organizations.

We

contribute