This

is

the

Unholy

Union,

a

podcast.

Where

you'll

be

subjected

to

highly

offensive

marital

discourse.

If

you

do

not

feel

insulted

during

this

week's

episode,

don't

worry.

We'll

try

harder

next

week.

If

you

can

relate

to

our

ramblings,

we

want

to

be

friends

with

you.

If

you

believe

that

we

take

it

too

far

or

our

mouths

are

too

much

for

you,

then

with

as

much

love

and

sincerity

as

we

can

muster,

you

can

suck

it.

Welcome

to

the

Unholy

Union.

Welcome

back,

famous.

We've

got

a

new

guest

with

us.

Yes,

we

do.

One

that

is

going

to

be

near.

And

dear

to

my

heart,

specifically

the

topic,

but

absolutely.

Reverend

Katie

Odon

is

going

to

be

someone

that

I

hope

we

continue

having

conversations

with

specifically

about

this

matter.

But

let's,

let's

give

a

little

intro

here.

So

Reverend

Katie

O'Donne

is

the

founder

of

Faith

and

Mental

Health

Integrative

Services.

I'm,

I'm

on

it

today,

I

promise.

You

want

to

try

that

again?

I

had

it.

An

organization

helping

individuals

with

OCD

and

related

disorders

live

into

their

faith

traditions

as

they

navigate

evidence

based

treatment.

So

prior

to

this,

she

spent

about

seven

years

serving

as

the

Academy

Chaplain

and

the

R.L.

brand

Jr.

35

Chair

of

Religious

Studies

at

Woodward

Academy

in

Atlanta.

And

while

serving

in

this

role,

she

also

served

as

a

consultant

on

interfaith

programming

for

schools

around

the

country.

So

Katie

is

proud

to

be

an

IOCDF

lead

advocate

and

I

can't

wait

to

talk

about

what

that

is.

An

ordained

minister

in

the

United

Church

of

Christ

and

an

endurance

athlete,

tackling

50

ultramarathons

for

OCD.

She

is

currently

pursuing

her

doctorate

at

Vanderbilt

to

continue

with

her

focus

on

faith

and

mental

health.

She

graduated

from

Candler

School

of

Theology

at

Emory

with

her

Master

of

Divinity

and

Certificate

of

Religion

and

Health

in

May

of

2015.

So

that's

a

lot.

So

I

feel

like

we

need

to

take

a

step

back

and

almost

like,

how

did

you

get

your

start

in

all

this?

What

brought

you

to

seek

education

to

start

these

organizations?

Can

you

tell

us

your

story?

Yes.

Well,

first

of

all,

thank

you

so

much

for

having

me.

I

am

super

pumped

to

be

here

and

just

to

connect

with

you

all

and

to

hopefully

join

this

awesome

fan

them

in

different

ways.

Yes,

I'm

all

about

that.

And

you

know,

for

me,

I've

navigated

OCD

since

before

I

can

remember.

And

most

of

my

earliest

memories

involved

trying

to

make

sure

that

every

single

person

was

safe.

Even

when

I

was

in

elementary

school,

it

was

coming

home

and

confessing

all

sorts

of

different

worries

to

my

Parents.

It

was

touching

things

in

a

particular

order

because

I

thought

something

bad

would

happen

if

I

didn't.

But

it

was

undiagnosed

for

a

very

long

time.

And

for

me,

I

wasn't

diagnosed

really

from

onset

until

for

probably

17

or

18

years,

which

is

on

average

that.

That

kind

of

OCD

space.

But

it.

It

plagued

me

in

different

ways

throughout

my

life

and

went

up

and

down,

for

better

or

for

worse.

I

was

incredibly

high

functioning.

The

downside

to

that

was

it

prevented

me

from

getting

treatment

for

a

really

long

time

and

got

into

grad

school

and

really

everything

started

to

explode.

So

I

moved

into

seminary

at

Emory

to

do

my

Master

of

Divinity.

And

the

OCD

that

I

had

been

kind

of

keeping

under

wraps

started

to

get

really

bad,

where

I

wasn't

sleeping

anymore

because

I

was

spending

all

night

checking

oven

stove

lock,

then

praying.

Oven,

stove,

lock,

prayer.

Um,

I

was

driving

back

to

spaces

where

I

was

interning

and

trying

to

break

in

in

the

middle

of

the

night

to

make

sure

candles

were

blown

out

and

that

nothing

would

burn

down

or

that

a

crime

wasn't

being

committed.

And

at

this

point,

I

had

some

inkling

that

this

might

be

O.

C

D

because

of

some

psychology

classes

I

was

taking

and

shared

with

a

mentor

that

I

thought

I

might

be

navigating

this

thing

called

obsessive

compulsive

disorder,

and

maybe

I

should

seek

treatment.

And

the

unfortunate

thing

that

I

now

talk

very,

very

loudly

and

openly

about

is

that

at

the

time

I

was

told,

no,

don't

seek

treatment.

You

won't

pass

your

psych

evaluations,

you

won't

get

ordained.

This

will

mess

up

your

career

in

ministry.

So

I

didn't

tell

anybody.

I

actually

studied

how

to

lie

on

my

psych

evaluations,

which

in

retrospect

is

really

strange

to

try

to

avoid

anybody

detecting

that

I

had

this

thing

going

on.

So

move

through

seminary,

was

ordained,

and

actually

started

in

a

really

large

chaplaincy

role

at

age

25.

And

OCD

loves

to

latch

on

to

the

things

that

are

the

most

important

to

us,

which

I'm

sure

we'll

talk

about

more

today.

And

I

was

heading

into

this

role

where

I

was

the

chaplain

for

2700

students.

I

was

the

first

female

in

the

role,

and

I

was

25.

My

predecessor

had

been

there

25

years,

and

it

was

like,

you

have

to

get

this

right.

That's

how

I

felt.

And

it

was

very

much

breeding

ground

for

O

C

D

to

go

from

where

it

was

already

at

a

hundred

to

about

a

thousand.

So

for

me,

for

folks

who

are

listening,

it

sounds

like

we

talk

about

OCD

on

this

podcast.

Quite

a

bit.

But

OCD

involves

obsessions

and

compulsions,

and

often

folks

assume

it's

just

one

particular

area

or

it's

about

organization,

and

it's

not.

For

me,

that

was

very

much

taboo.

Intrusive

thoughts.

There's

always

things

that

really

oppose

who

you

are

as

a

person.

So

my

OCD

related

to

harm.

It

related

to

harm

of

others.

And

there

was

a

big

fear

that

I

wasn't

actually

this

nice

chaplain.

But

what

if

I

am

secretly

this

horrible,

dangerous

person?

And

the

very

long

story

short

for

me

is

I

was

working

in

the

area

of

grief,

tragedy,

trauma,

and

loss.

I

was

the

first

line

for

thousands

of

families

and

faculty

and

staff

anytime

something

bad

would

happen,

and

it

did

often

while

I

was

there.

And

my

OCD

found

a

way

to

blame

me

for

every

single

instance,

to

the

point

that

I

was

officiating

funerals,

figuring

out

tangible

ways

that

I

was

responsible

for

whatever

had

happened.

So

eventually

got

to

the

point

where

I

was

going

home

from

my

role

as

a

chaplain,

sitting

on

the

floor,

like,

rocking

back

and

forth,

trying

not

to

comp

the

police

on

myself

for

crimes

that

I

hadn't

committed,

just

in

case.

Yeah.

So,

yeah,

yeah.

Ocd,

that's.

That's

where

I

get

passionate

about

it.

Yeah.

Sounds

like

you

can

relate

to

that.

Oh,

yeah.

Seriously,

so

much

of

what

you

said,

I

think,

just

is

very

familiar,

I

guess

we'll

say

in

things

that

we've

discussed.

When

do

you

feel

like

you

could

pinpoint,

like,

the

Stark.

You

actually

said,

this

is

something

that

I

need

to

be

aware

of

because

I

feel

like

a

lot

of

people

go

through

the

motions

of

this

is

how

I

am.

And

then

suddenly

it's

like,

oh,

wait.

There'S

more

to

it

for

sure,

because

I

had

mine

throughout

my

childhood.

I

just

never

knew

what

that.

I

just

thought

I

was

being

weird.

It's

not

until

2019

when

it

finally

snapped,

and

it

was

this,

like

you

said,

a

hundred.

Now

it's

a

thousand.

That

was

the

point

where

it

was

debilitating

ocd.

I

couldn't.

I

didn't

want

to

leave

the

house.

I

didn't

want

to

do

anything.

But

I

can't

even

pinpoint

mine.

When

I

figured

it

out,

other

than

2019,

when

it

broke,

and

I

was

like,

something's

going

on

here

that's

bigger

than

just

me

compulsively

washing

my

hands

or

anything

like

that.

Yeah.

I

mean,

I

think

for

me,

it

was.

And

it

really

is

hard

to

pinpoint

the

time,

but

I

think

for

me,

when

I

knew

I

actually

needed

to

get

help

was

when

it

was

no

longer

really

an

Option

for

me,

it

was.

I

can't,

in

retrospect,

as

sick

as

I

was.

And

I

was

probably

doing

upwards

of

20

hours

of

compulsions

a

day.

And

I

was

so

good

at

hiding

it.

I

was

in

this

super

public

role.

Nobody

knew

I

was

like

teaching

in

classes.

I

was

in

front

of

thousands

of

people

making

speeches,

and

I

was

compulsing

in

my

head

to

make

sure

I

didn't

kill

somebody

in

the

parking

lot.

I

mean,

it's

so.

It

was

so

intense,

but

I

hit

a

point

where

I

was

so

low,

it

was

hard

for

me

to

put

one

foot

in

front

of

the

other.

It

was.

I

was

going

to

the

bathroom

between

clothes,

classes

of

teaching

kids

with

smile

on

my

face

to

throw

up

because

I

was

so

anxious.

And

it

was

really

a

family

member,

my

mom

at

the

time,

who

was

like,

I

think

you

need

to

seek

treatment.

And

I

still

had

so

much

shame,

but

was

very

fortunate

to

find

an

awesome

provider

in

Atlanta

to

do

exposure

and

response

prevention

with

as

the

gold

standard

treatment

for

ocd.

And

does

not

mean

it

was

an

easy

process,

but

it

saved

my

life.

And

I

guess

to

answer

your

original

question

coming

out

of

that,

that's

how

I

started

to

get

into

this

work

around

faith

and

ocd,

because

unfortunately,

through

this

journey,

some

of

the

things

that

my

OCD

latched

onto

were

actually

me

losing

students

to

their

own

mental

health

struggles

in

spaces

where

they

didn't

speak

up

because

of

their

faith

tradition

and

because

of

having

shame

around

what

that

would

look

like

and

mean

in

their

religious

community.

And

I

wanted

folks

to

know

that

you

can

in

fact

be

a

religious

leader

and

seek

mental

health

treatment,

that

those

things

are

not

in

opposition

to

each

other

at

all,

but

actually

by

engaging

in

our

mental

health,

we

can

fully

be

the

people

that

we

are

created

to

be.

It

sounds

like

it.

OCD

and

just

other

mental

health

disorders

are

stigmatized

in

the

religious

side

too.

I

mean,

I'm

religious.

I'm

not

going

to

pretend

like

I

am

a

super

passionate

practicing

Christian,

but.

I'm

like

a

super

inclusive,

kind

of

like

hippie

interfaith

minister.

So

we're

fine.

Okay.

No,

no,

but

I

mean,

I

believe

in,

in

God

and

all

that,

but

that's

crazy

to

me

that

it

is

stigmatized

within

that

circle

because

of

what

is

preached.

I

know

it's

stigmatized

in

our

society

in

general,

all

mental

illnesses.

That's

probably

the

reason

why

OCD

takes

17

years

on

average

to

get,

you

know,

begin

treatment.

But

to

find

out

that

it's

also

stigmatized

within

religion

is.

Is

eye

opening

to

me.

It's

Kind

of

surprising.

Oh

yeah.

And

that's

so

that's

become

my

entire

life.

And

what

I

often

see

in

so

many

religious

communities

is

mental

is

being

discussed

more,

but

more

from

a

mental

health

space

of

we

can

meditate

and

we

can

do

self

care

and

we

can

do

all

of

these

things.

Not

from

a

space

of

diagnosable

mental

illness

and

clinical

mental

health

treatment,

evidence

based

treatment.

So

particularly

the

area

that

I

work

in

now

is

religious

scrupulosity,

which

is

a

subtype

of

ocd.

Well,

some

people

consider

it

a

subtype,

some

actually

considered

an

umbrella

that

lots

of

subtypes

might

fall

under.

But

in

essence,

OCD

latches

on

to

what's

important

to

us.

So

of

course

it

might

latch

onto

faith.

So

each

and

every

day

I

work

on

cases

for

folks

who

are

Jewish

and

Christian

and

Muslim

and

Hindu

and

Buddhist

that

the

religious

practices

that

they're

engaging

in

repetitively

are

from

a

space

of

shame,

fear,

guilt

of

the

disorder,

rather

than

actual

meaning

in

their

life.

And

it's

actually

taking

away

their

faith

in

their

life.

So

all

of

my

research

work

and

the

work

I

do

with

clinicians

is

around

how

do

we

parse

that

out

in

ways

that

are

culturally

responsive

while

understanding

someone's

religious

practices,

respecting

those,

but

also

making

sure

that

they

feel

affirmed

in

legitimately

getting

the

treatment

that

they

need.

Right,

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's

definite.

Like

that's

golden

work

for

sure.

I

mean,

seriously,

it's,

it,

it's

mind

boggling

how

there's

doctors

for

everything.

Your

heart,

your

brain,

your

legs,

your

toes,

things

like

that.

But

mental

illness

has

always

been

like

this

redheaded

stepchild.

Well,

it's

almost

like

pretty.

It's

pretty,

right?

Mental

health

should

be

pretty.

You

don't

ever

want

to

talk

about

the

nasty

of

it,

right.

The

scary

of

it,

because

it

becomes

this

huge

monster.

And

if

you

get

to

that

point,

it's.

You

said

it

yourself

that

it's

all

about

shame.

You

start

to

feel

like,

what

am

I

doing

and

why

is,

why

me?

So

I

guess

what

do

you

think,

if

any

are

there,

you

know,

societal

contributions

to

that?

Like,

why

do

we

feel

like

maybe

this

is

an

uptick

in

something

that

we're

experiencing

as

a

country

and

maybe

even

on

a

broader

scale.

Yeah,

I

mean,

I

have

so

many

different,

different

thoughts

on

this.

On,

on

one

hand,

I

do

think

there

is

thankfully

more

people

are

talking

about

mental

health.

Even

even

though

I'm

saying,

you

know,

not

necessarily

in

the

church

with

mental

illness

or

in

religious

communities,

there

is

on

social

media

and

in

different

spaces

there

are

conversations

around

mental

health.

So

I

think

there

are

more

people

that

are

seeking

treatment,

which

is

really

a

beautiful

thing.

I

think

as

we

hear

about

it

more,

there

are

more

people

who

are

willing

to

step

up

and

say,

okay,

this

is

what

I'm

experiencing.

But

at

the

same

time,

I

think

there

is

such

a

high

level

of

pressure

and

stress

and

need

for

perfectionism.

There

is

this

constant.

We

are

always

connected

to

one

another

that

I

don't

think

creates

mental

illness,

but

I

think

can

exacerbate

it.

And

I

often

think

about

this

in

faith

communities

where

I.

I

deeply

believe,

where

there's

all

sorts

of

different

debates

around.

Are

you

predisposed

to

have

ocd?

Do

you

end

up

with

OCD

because

of

your

environment?

I.

I

typically

fall

in

the

camp

of,

I

believe

in

some

way

you're

predisposed

to

have

it,

that

the

environment

that

you're

in

can

either

feed

and

kind

of

foster

that,

or

you

can

go

in

a

different

direction.

And

with

faith

and

religious

communities,

I

see

so

many

people

end

up

in

kind

of

spiritual

abuse

scenarios

or

scenarios

that

are

really

unhealthy,

that,

yes,

maybe

they

were

predisposed

to

have

O,

C,

D,

but

it

took

on

the

form

of

religious

scrupulosity

because

of

what

they

were

told,

because

of

the

rigidity

that

they

experienced,

or

may

they

experienced

something

else

in

their

life

where

that's

the

form

that

OCD

took

because

it

was

the

thing

that

was

the

most

important

and

drilled

into

them

as

the

scariest.

So

I'm

not

sure

if

that's

something

that

resonates

with

you

in

your

own.

Your

own

OCD

journey.

Yeah.

Oh,

absolutely.

Mine

was

Harm

ocd,

and

it

had

to

do

with

our

daughter.

I

had.

It

was.

Like

I

said,

it

was

debilitating,

but

it

was

Harm

OCD

revolving

around

her

and

it.

My

environment,

what

caused

it,

which.

This

sounds

terrible

for

Lens,

but

I

was

going

through

this

really

bad

bout

of

anxiety

because

I

had

started

a

new

job.

Multiple

panic

attacks

in

the,

er.

All

the

Ativan.

Yeah,

Ativan,

clonazepam,

all

that

stuff.

It

was

a

constant.

In

and

out

of

the

hospital

for

just

panic

attacks.

It

wasn't

OCD

yet.

Well,

Linds

asked

me.

We

were

on

a

walk.

She

was

like,

is

our

daughter

a

contributor

to

your

panic

attacks?

And

then

that

I

felt

it

immediately

broke

and

I

could

feel

it.

It

was

like

the

dam

breaking

and

it

washed

over

me

and

panic

set

in.

And

that's

when

I

was

at

my

worst.

Like,

OCD

reared

its

ugly

head

and

I

was

dead

done.

It.

It

all

spiraled.

Like,

could

I

hurt

her?

Would

I

Hurt

her?

Am

I

a

monster?

And

you

just

question

yourself

deep

down,

like

your

soul.

It's

like,

I've

never

hurt

anybody

in

my

life.

Well,

you

know.

Yeah,

yeah,

exactly.

What

if

ocd,

the

famous

question

is,

what

if,

what

if

I,

what

if

I

snap?

What

if

I

wake

up

tomorrow

and

I

hate

everything?

You

know,

whatever

it

is,

no

matter.

How

much

you

feel,

you

know

yourself.

Yeah.

It,

it,

what

if

it

makes

you

question

it?

Well,

and

the

more

you

try

to

prove

it

to

your.

Stronger

that

becomes.

And,

and

again,

you

know,

for

you,

it's

whenever

we

try

to

fight

it,

whenever

we

tell

ourselves,

but

I'm

not

that

person.

It's

when

we

give

it

importance.

Ocd.

Yes.

More

stronger,

even

stronger

because

we're

giving

it

attention.

You're

confirming

that

fear

that

is,

you

know,

to

your

brain,

that

it's

valid.

It's

a

valid

fear

because

you

are

now

wondering

if

you

could

do

it.

Absolutely.

Building

those

neural

pathways.

Right?

That's

it.

Constant.

That's

it.

And

it

was,

it

was

brutal,

but

I

went

through

erp.

It

was

very

hard,

but

it,

it's

life

changing

and

it's

necessary.

If

you

have

ocd,

I

think

you

need

to

do

yourself

a

favor

and

go

do

that

therapy.

It's

hard

work,

but

it

makes

your

life

better.

Well,

I

think

that's

interesting

as

a

thought

though,

because

when

you

were

going

through

erp,

right.

There's.

You're

exposing

yourself

to

our

daughter

at

all

times.

Right.

You

have

to

build

up

that

mentality,

that

exposure

that

build

the

neural

pathways

that

you.

This

isn't

you.

Right.

For

sure.

But

for

theology

purposes,

I

mean,

again,

we've

already

said

that

we

are

Christians,

but

when

you

think

about

theology,

it's

almost

like

this

imaginative

thing.

And

I,

I

don't

mean

it

the

way

it

sounds.

It's

spiritual.

Thank

you.

It

is

a

very

spiritual

thing.

That

is

a

good

word.

Whereas

our

daughter

is

a

tangible

person.

She's

right

in

front

of

you.

You

can

do

that.

So

to

what

extent

is

the

exposure

in

a

theology

type

of

situation?

Yeah.

Oh,

this

is

such

a

good

question.

This

is

like.

I

get

so

excited

talking

about

this

right

here.

I

mean,

a

couple

of

things.

Well,

ERP,

I

think

in

and

of

itself,

and

this

sounds

super

strange,

but

my

doctoral

work

is

actually

on

ERP

as

a

spiritual

practice.

And

that

sounds

super

bizarre

and

random,

but

the

entire

idea

of

that

is

a

spiritual

practice

is

defined

by

us

doing

things

that

are

really

challenging

in

favor

of

connecting

with

the

divine

in

powerful

ways.

And

ERP

as

a

process,

we're

doing

these

exposures

we're

doing

these

things

that

are

really,

really

hard.

We're

engaging

in

response,

prevention.

It

feels

icky,

it

feels

challenging.

And

ultimately,

in

all

the

cases

I've

seen,

people

reconnect

with

their

life.

They

reconnect

with

God,

they

reconnect

with

what's

important

to

them

through

this

kind

of

spiritual

practice,

through

this

really

big

leap

of

faith.

That

becomes

essential,

I

think,

for

folks

to

know

as

they're

doing,

erp

around

religious

scrupulosity,

because

they're

often

asked

to

do

things

that

might

feel

like

they

are

opposing

their

faith

when

they're

really

not

for

sure.

So

my

biggest

job

actually

is

I'm

not

a

clinician,

but

I

work

on

a

lot

of

treatment

teams

and

kind

of

help

folks

navigate

within

each

religion

and

as

a.

In

a

smaller

space

within

each

sect

and

within

each

denomination,

what

is

someone's

faith

and

what's

their

ocd?

And

how

do

we

develop

exposures

that

make

sense

for

that

person?

So

that

might

be

allowing

or

intentionally

writing

and

carrying

an

intrusive

thought

into

your

place

of

worship.

It

might

be

praying

imperfectly.

It

might

be

if

you

have

ritual

washing

as

a

part

of

your

tradition,

not

washing

that

one

extra

time

or

not

doing

it

perfectly

before

you

engage

in

your

prayer.

There's

all

different

forms

this

can

take.

I

think

with

religion,

the

tricky

thing

is

we

also

don't

want

to

ask

someone

to

do

something

that

completely

opposes

their

practice.

We're

not

going

to

ask

someone

who

is

keeping

kosher

to

eat

a

bacon

cheeseburger.

That's

just

going

to

make

them

leave

the

treatment

entirely

and

it's

not

going

to

help.

So

it's

with

exposures

around

religion,

I

say

it's

a

discomfort

versus

disrespect

line.

We're

making

someone

really

uncomfortable

without

crossing

the

line

of

their

religious

doctrine,

which

sometimes

can

be

kind

of

a

puzzle

and

an

adventure

for

each

case.

That

is

interesting.

I've

never

thought

about

that

because

my

exposures

were

not

easy

to

do,

but

they

were

easy

for

my

therapist

to

say,

hey,

do

this,

because

it

was

strictly

the

harm

stuff.

It's

like,

okay,

go

eat

a

steak

dinner

next

to

your

daughter

with

a

steak

knife.

I

was

going

to

say

hold

a

knife.

Yeah,

exactly.

Don't,

don't

get

up.

Don't

put

the

knife

away.

Just

don't

do

anything.

Sit

with

that

discomfort.

Well,

trying

to

manipulate

a

therapy

around

somebody's

rules,

that's

crazy

because,

you

know,

like

mine,

obviously

I

don't

want

to

sit.

I

didn't

want

to

sit

next

to

my

daughter

with

a

steak

knife

in

my

Hand.

But

I

knew

that

was

the

path

to

get

better.

But

having

to

change

the

therapy

based

upon

religion,

because,

like

you

said,

people

will

leave

if

you're

asking

them

to

go

against

what

they

truly

believe

in.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well,

and

even

what

you

just

said

of

the

I

don't

want

to.

That's

actually

what

I.

When

I

train

clinicians

around,

hey,

where's

the

line?

I

always

ask

them.

I

always

say,

tell

your

client.

Ask

them

why

they

don't

want

to

do

this

thing.

And

if

the

answer

is,

well,

I

don't

want

to,

because

it's

scary,

and

I'm

scared

something

bad's

gonna

happen,

it's

like,

great

exposure.

Ding,

ding,

ding,

let's

do

this.

If

the

answer

is,

nobody

else

in

my

entire

congregation

would

do

that,

and

I

can't

live

with

myself,

it's

like,

okay,

this

might

be

something

that's

violating

their

religious

practice.

And

to

be

able

to

dig

a

little

bit

deeper

and

say,

kind

of

an

80,

20

rule.

Would

80%

of

the

people

in

your

congregation

do

this

as

an

exposure?

And.

And

what

does

that

look

like?

Yeah,

so

that.

That

can

be

kind

of

a

helpful

piece,

but

it's.

Yeah,

it

definitely

takes

some

creativity

in

navigating.

For

sure.

For

sure.

I

bet

it

is.

Wow.

I

mean,

one

of

the

similarities

that

I'm

noticing

between

both

of

your

stories

is

you

had

to

get

to

a

point

where

there

was

no

more

ignoring

it.

Right.

Like,

you

could

not

move

another

day

past

this

until

you

received

the

support

you

wanted,

until.

Or

there's

the

support

you

needed

and.

Or

treatment.

I

mean,

do

you

either

of

you

feel

as

if,

like,

that

is

the

point,

or

is

there

something

that

people

can

do

as

a

way

to

overcome

it

before

it

gets

to

that

point?

I

mean,

just

from

your

experiences.

So

I.

You

know,

as

you

say

that,

I'm

like,

I

feel

like

y'all

totally

have

to

have

my

partner,

Ethan,

on

the

podcast.

So

he

is

an

OCD

advocate,

and

he

actually

hit

rock

bottom.

Lost

everything.

Lost

and

did

not

have

a

home.

I

mean,

it

was.

It

was

very.

He

was

at

a

very

low

point,

and

that

was.

His

switch

flipped

of,

I

am

literally

going

to

die

if

I

don't

put

one

foot

in

front

of

the

other

and

be

willing

to

risk

all

of

the

scary

stuff

coming

true

in

order

to

move

forward

with

my

life.

But

he

often

tells

people

the

lowest

in

his

case

is

one

of

the

most

severe

that

I've

ever

heard.

And

it's

so

neat

to

see

where

he

is

now

and

in

such

a

different

space.

But

what

he

often

tells

people

is

he

doesn't

want

people

to

have

to

get

to

that

point

and

that

he

doesn't

think

that

they

have

to.

And

I

think

that's

where

advocacy

really

comes

in

and

letting

people

know

that

there

is

an

option

before

hitting

rock

bottom.

For

me,

it

was

hitting

rock

bottom

and

realizing

I

can't

step

forward.

So

I

guess

I

have

to

do

something

about

this.

But

I

think

I

love

getting

to

talk

about

O

C

D

pretty

much

all

the

time

because

I

want

folks

to

know

you're

not

alone.

And

it

also

doesn't

have

to

get

that

bad.

I

love

when

I

work

on

cases

with

like

an

8

or

a

9

year

old

that

this

is

just

popping

up

and

we

can

let

them

know

just

through

treatment.

Nope,

we

can

embrace

these

fears

now.

We

don't

have

to

get

that

low

in

order

to

get

better.

Right,

Right.

I

think

it's

like

you

said,

advocacy

and

education.

Because

I

actually

checked

myself

into

a

mental

hospital

because

once

those

thoughts

started

pouring

in,

I

was

like,

no,

this

is,

this

is

a

line

drawn

line

in

the

sand.

So

I

checked

myself

in.

Well,

they

even

being

in

there

with

a

psych

psychiatrist,

he

was

wishy

washy

on

what

was

wrong

with

me.

It

was

terrifying.

So

I'm

like,

this

guy's

a

doctor

and

he

doesn't

know

what's

happening.

He

doesn't

know

why

non

OCD

specialists

don't

know.

It's

so

scary.

Exactly.

That's

what

the

problem

is.

It's

like,

I'm

going

to

this

dude,

he's

your

general

practitioner

for

mental

stuff.

And

he

was

like,

you

might

have

ocd

or

you

just

might

have

bad

anxiety

with

intrusive

thoughts.

And

it

was

throwing

medication

at

a

wall.

And

that's

what

it

was.

I.

They

put

me

on

like

seven

different

things

in

that

hospital,

which

all

of

it

made

me

feel

like

garbage.

It

wasn't

just

an

ssri,

but

it

was

like

risperido,

antipsychotic

medication

and

things

of

that

nature.

Well,

I

leave

that

hospital

and

on

my

bill

of

treatment,

they

said,

you

need

to

go

to

this

therapist.

I

go

to

this

therapist.

She's

just

a

talk

therapist,

which

is

the

enemy

of

ocd,

period.

Because

they

give

you

reassurance

like

it's

candy.

Right.

And

it's

literally

just

putting

fuel

on

the

fire

of

ocd.

Exactly,

exactly.

Well,

I.

They

sent

me

there

and

I

go

there

and

you

know

what

the

first

thing

she

says

to

me

after

she

reads

my

medical

records?

She

said,

are

you

schizophrenic?

She

said

that

to

me

as

an,

as

somebody

who

didn't

know

they

had

ocd

or

didn't

really

know

if

they

were

schizophrenic.

So

there

you

go.

Yeah,

here

goes

another.

Here

goes

another

intrusive

thought

cycle

that

I

have

to

go

through.

I

have

to

worry

and

think,

oh,

did

I

just

hear

something?

Did

somebody

just

talk

to

me?

People

get

diagnosed

with

so.

Oh,

gosh,

so

many

different

disorders,

but

my

partner

was

very

much

the

same

way.

And

then

it's

terrifying,

and

that

becomes

the

next

obsession,

and

then

you're

still

not

in

the

right

treatment.

You're

exactly

anything.

I

think.

I

think

we

went

through

three

or

four

talk

therapists,

and

finally

I

said,

this

is

enough.

Nothing

is

getting

better.

And

I

started

doing

research

as

a

compulsion.

It

was.

But

it

did

help

me.

I

did

eventually

figure

out

that

I

was

suffering

from

ocd.

And

that

got

me

onto

the

IOCDF

website,

and

I

found

a

local

therapist.

And

finally

when

I

went

there,

the

therapist

said,

you

have

ocd.

That's

what

you

got.

And

I

was

finally

like,

wow,

okay,

well,

now

that

I

know

what's

going

on

with

my

brain,

now

I

can

finally

start

working

towards

getting

better.

But

it

was

all

on

me.

Was

he

super

nonchalant

when

he

heard

yourself?

Because

that's

what.

We

always

go

to

treatment

providers

who

are

like,

what,

these

intrusive

thoughts?

And

then

you

go

to

an

OCD

specialist

and

they're

like,

that's

all

you

got.

Yeah.

One

lady,

actually,

one

of

the

therapists

actually

said

after

I

told

her,

she

was

like,

you

don't

want

to,

though,

right?

I

was

like,

oh,

my

God.

I

don't

know.

Miserable

at

the

beginning.

Yeah,

exactly.

Exactly.

But

it

was

a

complete

disaster.

And

none

of

them

thought

to

say,

hey,

you

might

have

ocd.

I'm

not

the

right

person

for

that.

Please

go

see

an

OCD

therapist.

Here's

a

couple

of

names.

None

of

them

know

about

it.

Yeah,

it's

insane

to

me.

And

it's

one

of

the

most

common

mental

illnesses

out

there.

That's.

That's

the

other

crazy

part.

Well,

I

wonder,

like,

readable.

So

it's

like,

if

we

could

actually

get

people

in

the

door

for

the

right

treatment.

Exactly.

Well,

I

wonder

if

it's

because

of

these

therapists

who

are

more

of

the

talk

variety,

that

people

don't

get

diagnosed.

Well,

I'm

going

to

therapy.

I'm

talking

to

somebody

about

it.

They

haven't

diagnosed

me

with

it.

It's

like,

right.

Maybe.

Maybe

that's

why

the

17

years

is.

Is

the

problem

too,

because

they're

going

to

therapy.

They

think

they're

doing

the

right

thing,

but

they're

not

told

that

therapy

like

that

talk

therapy

for

OCD

is

awful.

You're

going

backwards.

And

there's

a

lot

of

well

meaning

talk

therapists

and

I

would.

But

you

know,

thankfully

with

the

IOCDF

there

are

so

many

awesome

trainings

and

I've

gotten

to

be

a

part

of

a

lot

of

really

cool

things

of

even

training

clinicians

around.

No,

this

is

what

OCD

is

and

here's

how

to

refer

or

what

treatment

looks

like

that.

The

BTTI

is

great

for

training

folks,

but

I

think

that,

I

mean

that's

a

huge

component

of

the

17

years

there's

one,

the

stigma

of

what

OCD

looks

like

in

the

media

that

isn't

actually

ocd.

So

people

see

that

and

then

they

say,

well,

that's

not

what

I'm

experiencing.

I

don't

like

to

organize

things,

which

is

not

what

OCD

is.

So

they

assume

they

don't

have

it

and

then

you

end

up

going

to

a

provider

who

thinks

they

can

treat

it

if

you

get

diagnosed

and

they

can't.

It's

just

a

very

continuous

cycle

for

a

lot

of

people.

But

I'm

so

thankful

now

when

I

see

kids

again

who

are

getting

treated

so

much

earlier

and

I

think

it

is

starting

to

shrink

a

little

bit

and

there's

a

lot

of,

a

lot

of

hope

in

that.

And

then

also

the,

oh,

I

wish

that

was

me.

Right,

right,

right.

For

sure.

I

know

you're

doing

your

part

and

I've

got,

we

talk

about

it

on

this

podcast

and

I've

got

a

little

blog

going,

but

I,

I,

I

wish

there

were

more

advocates

for

this

kind

of

stuff

and,

and

even

training

for

doctors

and

to

recognize

this.

It's

mind

boggling

to

me

that

it

took

me

five

different

people

to

finally

just

get

online

and

find

out

that

oh

yeah,

it's

ocd,

so

you

need

to

go

see

an

OCD

person.

That's

crazy.

Well,

you

mentioned

IOCDF

us,

so

can

you

explain

what

an

IOCDF

lead

advocate

is?

So

IOCDF

is

the

International

OCD

foundation

and

it

is

a

fantastic

foundation

for

all

things

obsessive

compulsive

disorder

from

resources

and

very

proud

to

have

so

many

different

resource

pages

on

the

site

from

how

to

get

treatment

to

finding

treatment

providers

to

live

programming

on

Facebook

and

on

YouTube

and

on

Instagram

Live.

I

was

doing

an

Instagram

Live

for

them

like

four

hours

ago.

We

have

stuff

all

the

time,

but

it's,

it's

just

an

awesome

organization

and

one

of

the

few

mental

health

organizations

that

I

know

that

focuses

on

resources

for

clinicians

and

for

researchers

and

also

for

individuals

with

OCD

and

For

families

and

now

for

faith

leaders

and

that.

That's

been

a

big

component

of.

Of

what

I

get

to

do

with

them.

But

even

the

conferences,

there's

a

yearly

in

person

conference

that

is

the

most

fun

event

under

the

sun

because

everyone

comes

together

in

community

and

learns

but

also

has

just

a

fantastic

time

advocating

and

so

many

different

things.

So

it's

organization

that's

around

that

but

also

virtual

conferences

throughout

the

year.

And

I

have

the

pleasure

of

serving

as

one

of

the

lead

advocates.

There's

a

group

of.

How

many

of

is

it

five

or

six

of

us?

Five

of

us.

We

have

a

group

of

lead

and

national

advocates

that

are

kind

of

the

spokespeople

for

the

organization

and

get

to

talk

about

different

areas

advocate

and

we

lead

all

of

the

other

advocates

within

the

organization

and

help

train

folks

to

kind

of

speak

up

about

ocd.

Wow.

That's.

That's

the

resource

I

use

to

find

my

treatment

partner.

I

mean

it

worked

well

and

I

read

a

lot

of

stories

on

there

and

like

I

said

it

was

compulsive

but

it

helped

me

until

I

could

get

into

to

see

somebody.

And

that's.

That's

another

problem

that

I've

I

noticed

was

the

length

of

time

from

contacting

an

ERP

therapist

to

being

able

to

actually

start.

It

was

six

months

I

think

is

what

it

took

me.

So

I

had

to

sit

with

that

for

six

months.

It

was

awful.

And

then

insurance

coverage

is

another

yes

for

folks

too.

Of

often

people

end

up

with

talk

therapists

because

insurance

doesn't

necessarily

cover

their.

Their

ERP

provider.

It

didn't

cover

mine?

Nope.

Out

of

pocket.

I

went

to

two

and

neither

one

of

them

was

covered

by

insurance.

But

I

paid

it.

It

was

desperation

at

that

point.

But

it

was

expensive

and

it

was

once

a

week.

But

I

mean

to

that

point

there's

people

who

can't

pay

out

of

pocket.

Right.

So

again

the

17

years

could

be

because

of

that.

And

there

were

a

lot

of

things

we

researched

during

that

time.

There

was

a.

What

was

it

called?

A

trial

I

think

in

Texas.

Yes.

I

cannot

remember

what

it

was.

Do

you?

I

just

know

it

was

in

Texas

and

it

was

like

a

seven

day

long

and

they

had

an.

Yeah,

Bergen.

That's

it.

That's

it.

Yes.

Trolls.

That's

how

I

remember

Bergen.

Like

that

was

a

big

thing

for

a

little

bit.

Yeah.

Do

you

have

any

experience

with

that

or

anyone

that

has

maybe

gone

to

that

that

you've

spoken

to?

You

know,

I

am

not

an

expert

in

that

by

any

means.

It's

really

interesting.

The

reason

I

know

about

it

is

actually

when

I

was

in

my

own

OCD

treatment

journey

when

I

was

really

sick.

I

went

to

my

first

IOCDF

conference

long

before

I

was

connected

with

them

or

spoke

or

did

anything

related

to

ocd.

And

it

was

still.

I

didn't

want

anybody

to

know

and

kind

of

my

public

role.

And

I

went

to

a

little

seminar

there

on

the

Bergen

Method.

And

I

was

just

in

such

desperation

at

that

point.

I

was

looking

for

anything

and

trying

to

find

something,

but

ended

up

getting

treatment

in

my

area.

And

so

I

really

don't

know.

It's

not

something

I've

heard

folks

talk

about

for

a

very

long

time

to

be

desperate.

Yeah,

well,

it's

weird

too

because

it's

not

really

prevalent

here.

I

think

it's.

It

was

developed

in

another

country

and

it's

still

it.

They

still

do

it

there.

But

here

it

was

like

one

spot

in

the

entire

US

that

did

it.

And

I

had

to

fly

to.

I

think

it

was

Austin,

Texas.

And

I,

I

am

deathly

afraid

of

flying.

So

I

was

going

to

drive.

And

at

the

time

we

lived

in

D.C.

yeah.

And

at

the

time

we

were

in,

in.

In

Northern

Virginia

area.

And

it

was,

it

was

a

nightmare.

And

we

ended

up

not

doing

it.

Because

you

got

into

the.

A

second

therapist,

which

her

methods

were

much

better

than

my

first

one.

So

my

first

therapist

method

was

real

old

school.

It

was

like

habitual

thinking

and

I

couldn't

habituate

feeling

comfortable

with

harming

my

kid.

I

mean,

who

would.

My.

My

next

one.

She

was,

you

know,

she

was

more

of

a

natural

ERP

therapists.

I

don't

know

how

to.

How

else

to

say

it,

but

she

said

it's

more

about

the

response

prevention

than

that

exposure.

Those

thoughts

are

going

to

pop

up,

but

it's

about

what

you

do

with

them

is

the

important

part.

So

she

kind

of

just

let

it

go.

And

she

taught

me

how

to

prevent

myself

from

spinning

up

and

questioning.

She

was

like,

pretend

like

it's

a.

It's

a

butterfly

landing

on

your

arm.

You

look

at

it,

you

acknowledge

it

and

then

you

just

let

it

be.

Whether

or

not

it's

gonna

fly

away,

it

doesn't

matter.

It

can

stay

there.

You

know,

it's

there,

but

that's

all

you

have

to

do

with

it.

It's.

I

love

that.

And

that's

such

like

an

act

and

an

acceptance,

commitment,

therapy

component

too,

which

goes

as

such

a

great

adjunct

for

so

many

people

doing

ERP

and

what

you

highlighted,

it's

been

such

a

shift

even

in

the

field,

as

much

as

I've

worked

on

the

religious

side

from

just

hard

hitting,

scariest

possible

exposure

to

really

a

focus

on

the

response

prevention.

And

I

have

a

good

friend,

Dr.

Emily

Bailey,

who

always

says

little

E

and

big

RP.

And

it's.

It's

really

about

the

RP.

And

that

was

my

problem

for

a

long

time

in

treatment.

I

was

like,

I

can

do

the

hardest

exposure,

and

then

I

would

ruminate

for

12

hours.

So

exactly.

Help.

That

is

so

hard

to

stop

because

it's

just

automatic.

And

most

people's

brain,

they

ruminate

on

things.

It's

awful

for

anyone

because

that

ends

up

leading

to

depression.

It

doesn't

have

to

mean

ocd,

but.

We

actually

had

a

running

joke

about

rumination

in

that

men

have

a

nothing

box.

Right.

Women

are

wired

differently,

and

men

have

a

nothing

box.

He

couldn't

go

to

his

nothing

box.

It

didn't

exist.

If

I

went

into

the

nothing

box,

I

would

spin

up

and

turn

it

into

some

kind

of

deathly

thing.

It

was

awful.

Yeah,

that

was

my

safe

space.

It

was

ruined.

Coming

back

to

topic

here.

No.

So

I

think

ultimately,

when

you

both

are

talking

about

this,

there's

a

lot

of

similar

themes

in

your

experiences.

And

what

would

you

say

is

advice

that

you

would

give