This

is

the

Unholy

Union,

a

podcast.

Where

you'll

be

subjected

to

highly

offensive

marital

discourse.

If

you

do

not

feel

insulted

during

this

week's

episode,

don't

worry.

We'll

try

harder

next

week.

If

you

can

relate

to

our

ramblings,

we

want

to

be

friends

with

you.

If

you

believe

that

we

take

it

too

far

or

our

mouths

are

too

much

for

you,

then

with

as

much

love

and

sincerity

as

we

can

muster,

you

can

suck

it.

Welcome

to

the

Unholy

Union.

Here

we

go

with

the

new

interview.

Yes,

after

a

break

or

two,

we

were,

we

were

working

on

some

stuff

to

bring

some

interviewers

on

and.

Interviewers.

No,

interviewees.

Interviewees.

There

you

go.

And

we

kind

of

told

you

about

this

one

last

episode.

And

this

is

Charlie

Marks

from

Charlie

Marks

Music.

He

is

a

banjo

and

guitar

picking.

You

didn't

really

throw

it

to

me

there.

I

need

to

work

on

that

transition

friend.

Bad

pass.

Charlie

Marks.

He

is

a

banjo

and

guitar

picking

folks

singer

from

outside

of

Reno,

Nevada.

And

I

can't

wait

to

dive

into

this.

This

is

going

to

be

so

much

fun

to

talk

about.

But

Charlie

blends

together

traditional

and

original

folk

tunes

to

weave

together

heartfelt

stories.

Charlie

is

also

a

poet,

a

writer

and

an

aspiring

chicken

farmer.

So

lots

to

talk

about

today.

I

can't

wait

to

dive

in

here.

Let's

do

it.

How

did

you

get

your

start,

Charlie?

Thanks

for

having

me

on.

So

I

always

kind

of

had

this

idea

that

I

wanted

to

sing

and

play

music.

I

was

always

really

drawn

to

singing.

I

think

I

was

a

bit

of

an

isolated

maybe

felt

like

a

bit

of

a

lonesome

child.

And

if

I

sang

loud

enough,

people

would

have

to

listen

to

me

and

people

would

joke

that

I

sounded

like

Bob

Dylan.

And

what

they

meant

was

please

stop

singing.

And

which

now

I'll

go

to

bat

any

day

and

I'll

bring

out

whatever

recording

of

Bob

Dylan

and

show

you

how

fantastic

of

a

singer

he

is.

But

I

was

like

a

pretty

depressed

22

year

old

when

I

was

graduating

college

and

I

saw

that

Coen

Brothers

movie

Inside

Llewyn

Davis.

And

I

don't

know

if

you've

seen

that

one,

but

it's

kind

of

like

based

on

the

life

of

Dave

Von

Rock

who,

well,

loosely

based

around

like

him

as

a

character.

He

was

like

Bob

Dylan's

uncle

during

the

Greenwich

Village

folk

revival.

And

I

went

home

and

I

started

learning

some

of

these

old

folk

tunes.

And

I

guess

that

was

probably

about

10

years

ago

now.

And

it

took

me

five

or

six

years

to

kind

of

start

figuring

it

out.

I

go

play

open

Mics

and

whatnot.

And

one

day,

maybe

five

or

six

years

ago,

I

saw

a

music

shop

going

out

of

business

and

went

in

and

I

bought

a

banjo.

It

was

half

off,

but

they'd

also

marked

it

up

double.

So

I

just

bought

it

for

what

it

was

worth,

like,

you

know,

starter

200

kind

of

thing.

And

my.

When

I

got

home,

Jenna,

my

fiance

now,

was

like,

just

looking

at

me.

Like,

what

did

you

do?

But

for

whatever

reason,

there's

this

old

time

style

of

banjo

called

claw

hammer.

Instead

of

doing

the

finger

rolls

like

the

bluegrass

guys

do,

I

kind

of

almost

drum

on

the.

On

the

banjo.

It

goes

back

to.

It's

an

old,

like,

African

folk

style

playing

that

kind

of

made

its

way

over

the

Americas

and

was

one

of

the,

like,

kind

of

foundational

instrumental

styles

up

until

the

early

1900s,

when

other

forms

of

music

kind

of

started

blowing

up.

But

I

just

found,

like,

something

clicked

and

everything

just

started

rolling

and

I

started

performing

more.

And

then

when

the

pandemic

allowed

it

to

happen,

I

started

touring

a

lot.

And

for

the

last

couple

of

years,

I've

just

been

on

the

road

playing

shows.

I

put

out

a

bunch

of

albums

and

just

trying

to

make

it

happen,

trying

to

try

to

make

it

work.

There

you

go.

That's

awesome.

Wow.

You

opened

up

so

many

doors

that

I

want

to

walk

through.

I

mean,

first

and

foremost,

the

style

of

banjo

picking

that

you're

talking

about,

like,

that

you

said,

isn't

something

that's

done

more

recently

in

mainstream

music.

I

mean,

that.

That's

huge

for

someone

to

pick

up

a

sound

that

isn't

regularly

heard.

So

maybe

that's

why

we

were

kind

of

drawn

to

bring

you

onto

the

show.

And

listening

to

music,

it's

a

different

style.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah,

it's.

I

think

my.

A

friend

of

mine

who

played

bando,

I'd

play

with

him

sometimes

at

the

cafe

that

we

worked

at.

And

when

I

got

the

bandro,

I

told

him

and

he

was

like,

you

should

learn

claw

hammer.

And

when

he

said

that,

I

think

he

was

like,

like,

like,

what's

sending

me

down

a

path?

It

was

like

a

little

bit,

not

a

joke,

but

like

pulling

my

leg

a

little

bit.

But

I

was

just

like,

this

is

perfect.

It's

like

the

most

fun.

It's

traditionally

dance

music.

Like,

if

you

think

just

like

having

a

party

in

your

backyard,

it

goes

perfect

with

the

fiddle

and

there

are

plenty

of

people

who

do

it.

It's

just.

Yeah.

When

you

think

of,

like

the

banjo

today,

you

think

of

a

lot

of,

like,

bluegrass

and

you

think

of

a

certain

sound

that

isn't

Quite

what

I

do.

But

it's

a

tradition

that

people

have

been

keeping

going

the

whole

time.

There's

lots

of

amazing

claw

hammer

banjo

players

and

I,

I

kind

of

prefer

it

to

the

kind

of

bluegrassy

sound,

so

for

sure,

that's

awesome.

So

I.

One

of

the

things

you

said

was

22

year

old

graduating

college,

depression.

So

you,

so

you

kind

of

went,

you

went

through

some

mental

health

issues.

Oh

yeah,

because

I,

I

did

myself.

I,

I

actually

hospitalized

myself

for

five

days

for

ocd.

So

I

know

what

that's

like.

But

what

you

know.

Would

you

mind

sharing

your

experience?

Yeah,

if

that's

okay.

And

what

did

what

you

do

to

kind

of

break

out

of

it?

Because

a

lot

of

people

need

to

hear

stories

from

people

like

you

and

I

that

are

stories

of

victory

over

mental

illness.

Yeah.

What's

a

good

starting

place?

Because

like

as

part

of

my

sets,

like

it's

a

lot

of

what

I

talk

about

and

what

I

do.

I've

almost

been

trying

to

shift

my

sets

to

be

a

little

bit.

Not

always

just

solely

about

like

mental

health,

but

because

my.

I

put

out

an

album

called

Unbecoming

for

anybody

who'd

want

to

kind

of

dive

into

some

of

my

music.

It's

kind

of

like

my

album

that

was

about

navigating

mental

health.

But

I

think

that

throughout

most

of

my

life

I

kind

of,

you

know,

growing

up

in

the

US

I

feel

like

we

kind

of

get

raised

with

this

idea

of

like

you

can

kind

of

be

anything

or

do

anything,

but

all

of

a

sudden

you

kind

of

look

around

and

nobody

is

being

a

whole

lot

of

anything

besides

like,

well,

go

to

college,

get

your

job

or

just

like

struggle.

Like.

Yeah,

like

just

barely

get

by.

And

so

you

have

all

these

ideas

of

like.

I

don't

know.

I

feel

like

I

got,

I

was

in

a

spot

where

I

was

filled

with

like

lots

of

ideas.

What's

a,

what's

a

good

way

of

putting

it?

When

I

was

young,

I

feel

like

my

rather

generally

conservative,

like,

like

pro,

probably

Reagan

style

politics,

suburban

Midwest

household.

I

felt

like

I

got

to

read

a

lot

of

books

as

a

kid

and

I

feel

like,

to

use

a,

a

phrase,

I

got

red

pilled

very

early

on

in

my

life.

Like

you're,

you

know,

I'm

reading

like

Ursula

Guin

and

Kurt

Vonnegut

and,

and

all

these

authors

where

like

you

start

to

like

feel

like

the

world

we're

living

in

doesn't

make

a

lot

of

sense

and

that

it's

kind

of

oppressive

to

a

lot

of

us

and

that

there's

not

really

a

path

forward.

I

could

probably

do

a

Long

rant

right

now

about

how

America

killed

David

Foster

Wallace

and

I'm

like

still

mad

about

it.

And

I

think

for

me

I

had

a

bit

of

this

culture

shock

growing

up

in

a

slightly

conservative

space,

but

kind

of

like

stepping

into

a

lot

of

these

like,

I

don't

know,

like

left

leaning

and

spiritual

practices.

Like

I,

like

many

other

people,

read

like

Hess's

the

Darth

in

high

school

and

all

of

a

sudden

I

was

like,

the

world

as

I

know

it

is

not

what

I

thought

it

was,

which

is

me

every

single

day

now

just

in

a

better

headspace.

I'm

taking

a

while

to

get

to

something

that

feels

like

a

linear

way

of

talking

about

this.

But

when

I

was

around

22,

I

just

didn't

see

a

path

forward.

I

was

about

to

graduate

college

and

I

couldn't

really

imagine

what

the

next

day

of

my

life

or

the

next

week

or

month

looked

like.

All

like.

I

manically

tried

on

lots

of

things,

like

randomly

moved

out

to

the

Bay

Area

to

like

try

and

be

a

startup

computer

programmer

and

totally

bottomed

out

and

had

like

a

mental

breakdown

3,000

miles

away

from

where

I

grew

up

and,

and

I

kind

of

just

like

had

this

moment

where

I

moved

kind

of

by

choice.

I,

I

had

the

option

to

not

do

this

because.

Which

I

think

is

important.

But

when

I

was

like

23,

I

moved

into

my

car

and

that

first

night

that

I

slept

in

my

car

was

the

first

night

since

I

was

a

little

kid

that

I

just

slept

great.

I

fell

asleep

at

like

8pm

and

I

normally

was

up

till

3am

just

like

with

insomnia.

And

from

there

I

just

kind

of

like,

I

don't

know,

I

gave

myself

some

permission

to

float,

had

the

privilege

that

I

was

able

to

kind

of

float.

I,

I

traveled

around

in

my

car

for

a

while

and

just

like

found

some

cafe

jobs

and,

and

slowly

like

kind

of

started

incorporating

things

into

my

life

that

felt

like

they

worked.

I

feel

like

it

took

like

five

or

six

years

to

really

start

getting

into

a

path

that

started

feeling

good.

And

I

feel

like

I

always

struggled

with

anxiety.

I

had

the

privilege

to

go

to

grad

school

and

I

think,

wow,

this

is,

this

is

a

tough

one

because

it's

like

our

lives

are

very

complicated

and

like

think

about

our

mental

health.

Like

is

often

this

like

narrative

that's

happening

in

between

the

lines

for

if

someone's

asking

what

your

life

is

like.

And

I

feel

like

I

just

didn't

have

a

vision

for

like

now

I

can

maybe

say

I

feel

like

I

didn't

have

a

vision

for

what

it

looked

like

to

be

an

adult.

And

by

adult,

I

mean

an

older

person.

I

just

mean,

like.

Like.

Like,

to

be

myself

and

to

move

through

the

world

as

myself.

And

I've

kind

of

fallen

into

a

lot

of.

I

don't

know,

like,

spiritual,

mystic

things.

I'm

currently,

like,

going

through

this

journey

of,

like,

reconnecting

with

Torah

as

a

Jewish

person

and

kind

of

taking

a

lot

of

inspiration

from,

like,

reading

Eastern

spiritualism.

And

that's

been,

like,

a

big

part

of

the

journey

for

me.

I,

like,

had

this

realization

very

recently

in

the

last

year

or

so

that

I'd

always

been,

like,

kind

of

gravitating

towards

the,

like,

spiritual,

mystic

aspects

of

life.

And

I

hadn't

never

given

myself

permission

to

do

so

unironically

or

not

secretly.

Right.

So

now

I

get

on

stage,

and

I

bewilders

me

sometimes,

but

I'm,

like,

talking

about,

like,

a

story

from

the

Ramayana

to

explain

why

I'm.

Why

I'm

about

to

sing

a

song

to

you.

And

the

river

symbolism

and

the

boot,

it's,

like,

wild.

Like,

it's

kind

of

strange

to

be

that

person

now,

because

I

think

I

was

always

supposed

to,

but

it's

so

different

than

what

anyone

could

have

asked

me

to

have

been

in

this

life.

And

I

think

that's

what

can

be

really

hard

when

it

comes

to

mental

health

is

like.

In

my

view,

our

mental

health

is

just

a

reflection

of

how

close

we

are

to

being

the

person

that

we

actually

are.

Does

the

person

on

the

inside

match

the

person

on

the

outside?

And

are

people.

Because

people's

expectations

of

you

are

like.

Like

a

weight

that

gets

put

on.

I

was

gonna

say

that.

Do

you

think

that,

you

know,

possibly

your

issues

could

have

stemmed

from,

like,

our

society

of

being.

You

got

to

go

to

school.

You

gotta

go.

You

got

to

go

get

a

job

right

after

college.

You

got

to

go

be

this

computer

guy,

because

that's

what

all

the

rich

people

are

doing.

You

know,

things

of

that

nature.

It's

like

a.

It's

like

people

are

putting

this

expectation

on

you.

Society

is

putting

this

expectation

on

you,

and

they

don't

even

know

you.

So

I

think

it's

even,

like,

more

folded

in

than

that,

because

it

almost

becomes

you

have

a

disassociation

with

self.

Right?

Like,

you're

like,

this

is

not

who

I

want

to

be,

but.

Right.

Society

as

a

whole

is

pressuring

me

into

it.

Yeah,

I

gotta

go

to

school.

Because

everybody

in

school

has

told

me

that

I

gotta

keep

going

to

school.

Yeah,

but

you're

like,

no,

no,

no,

no,

no,

no,

no.

That's

not

me.

Let

me

figure

out

me

and

then

come.

That.

That's

powerful,

Charlie.

Seriously,

that.

To

understand

that

you

need

that

in

your

life

at

an

early

age.

That

would.

That's

powerful.

It's

like

gra.

You

know,

independence

of

your

mind

and

what

you

want

to

do

isn't

talked

about

enough.

Everybody

is

funneled

into

these

boxes,

you

know?

Yep.

And

then

once

we're

funneled

in

there,

we

feel

like

we

have

to

stay

in

that

box.

And

that's

not

good

for

you.

No,

it's.

It's

not

good

for

anybody.

Because

when

you

find

yourself

in

a

box,

I

don't

want

to

get,

like,

too

far

off

because

I.

I

had

another

thing.

But

when

we

get

funneled

into

boxes,

when

we

kind

of

look

at

the

world

and

like,

all

of

the,

like,

chaos

going

on,

it's.

You

can

almost

see,

like,

the

boxes

fighting

with

each

other.

Oh,

yeah.

The.

Like.

I

mean,

we

can.

Factions,

right?

Yeah.

Faction.

But

it's.

It's

like

a

box

of

your

spirit

and

your.

But

not

to,

like,

go

too

far

down

that

one.

But

it

made

me

think

of

when

I.

I

was

a

postdoc

at

the

University

of

Nevada,

Reno,

up

until

about

a

year

and

a

half

ago

and

almost

two

years

ago

now,

my

partner

sat

me

down

because

I

was

having

mental

breakdowns.

Every

Sunday.

Sunday

scaries.

Standard

staff.

Oh,

yeah,

for

sure.

Is

turning

into

the

Monday

meltdowns.

And

we

just

had

this

talk

where

she

basically

told

me

to

write

down

everything

that

I

wanted

out

of,

like,

what

I

wanted

my

day,

each

day

to

look

like

what

I

wanted

my

life

to

look

like.

And

as

we

kind

of

went

through

that,

it

was,

like,

very

clear

that

all

of

those

pressures

of,

like,

go

to

school,

get

this

job,

do

this

thing,

weren't

fitting

right.

We

weren't

allowing

the

things

that

needed

to

happen

to

happen.

And

so

I'm

very

lucky,

I

think,

to

be

rather

young

and

to,

like,

go

through

a

lot

of

these

growth.

But

I

also,

like,

don't

know

if

I

would

have

come

to

this

place

without

a

support

of

a

partner.

Not

that

it,

I

think,

has

to

be,

like,

a,

like,

romantic

partner

who

is

that

person

for

people.

But

I

think

being

community

with

people

who

support

you

and

actually

care

about

you

and

not

the

idea

of

you

is

very.

Yeah,

for

sure.

No,

there's

two

things

that

you

said

there.

I

mean,

I

think

writing,

like,

people

who

journal,

that

it

helps

people

with

anxiety.

Absolutely.

That

is

one

thing

that

they

tell

you

to

do.

Right.

Is

to

write

down

an

emergency

plan

or

write

down

something

that

brings

you

to

a

sense

that

you're

back

in

control.

Quote,

unquote

but

also

to

have

the

support

system.

So

that's

absolutely.

I

think

everything

that

you

should

do.

And

it

sounds

like

you

found

that

almost

organically.

Yeah,

I

think

I'm

very

fortunate.

I

made

the

joke

about

being

red

pill

very

early

in

life.

I,

for

whatever

reason,

was

lucky

that

I

feel

like

I

always

had

a

decent

compass

for

not

getting

dragged

too

deep

into

the

mud,

even

when

I

was

really

deep

in

the

mud,

and.

But

yeah,

it

fortunately

also

found

a

partner

who

yanks

me

out.

I

know.

We

know

what

you

mean

for

sure.

For

sure.

Well,

I

want

to

jump

back

to

the

idea

of

you

being.

Are

you

currently

in

Reno,

or

is

that

your

hometown?

What.

How

does

Reno

fit

into?

Yeah,

I

mean,

we

moved

to

Reno.

We're

about

an

hour

north,

though.

Like,

our

post

office

says

that

we

move

Reno.

We're

about

an

hour

north

of

town.

During

the

pandemic,

we

would

walk

around.

I

was

in

grad

school

in

San

Diego,

and

that's

where

I

met

Jenna.

And

we

would

walk

around

during

the

pandemic

and

look

at

all

the

houses

and

say,

like,

that

porch

is

really

nice.

Or,

like,

this

is

nice.

We

want

this.

We

want

this.

And

I

think

maybe

in

the,

like,

fever

dream

that

was

existing

during

the

pandemic,

we,

like,

got

the

chutzpah,

move

out

into

the

country.

Just

try

and

do

it

without

having

any

idea

what

we

were

doing.

That

is,

like,

kind

of

what.

I

have

an

album

and

song

called

Three

Years

Time,

and

it

was

just

about

how

when

you.

If

you

want.

It

was

the

line

and

the

songs.

If

you

want

your

garden

to

grow

and

you

never

done

it

before,

it's

going

to

take

you

three

years

time.

And

it

just

kind

of

comes

from

this

idea

of,

like,

when

you

try

and

do

something

really

big,

really

new.

Especially

gardening

was,

like,

just

a

very

specific

example,

but

building

a

home

and

kind

of

doing

it

on

your

own

and

in

your

own

way,

it

takes

a

long

time

to,

like,

figure

it

out,

and

you

have

to

be

really

patient

with

that

process.

So

our

home

has

kind

of

come

to

symbolize

what

we're

doing

with

our

lives,

which

I

think

is

good.

I

think

our

homes

are

supposed

to

be

the

symbol

of

what

we're

doing

with

lives

so.

Well,

and

then

your

fulfillment,

you

know,

you.

It

take

it.

Yeah.

Three

years.

But

you

have

a

home

and

your

garden

grew

and

your

chicken

farming.

Yeah,

well,

I've

been

joking.

The

chickens

are.

Are

working.

But

I've

been

joking

on

stage

because

it

has

been

three

years

now

that

I'm

gonna

have

to

rename

the

album

Four

Years

Time.

Re

release

it

revision

or

you

know.

Well,

one

of

the

reasons

why

I'm

asking

about

Reno,

Nevada

is

because

a

lot

of

my

extended

family

are

folk

singers.

Not

anywhere

near

to

the

caliber

that

you

are.

Meaning

that

they

haven't

recorded

or

anything.

But

they

are

all

from,

you

know,

Kentucky

and

Tennessee.

So

this

is

the

first

time

I'm

meeting

a

fellow

folk

singer

from

Nevada.

It

just.

Yeah,

I

mean

I

like

I.

I

grew

up

in

Ohio,

but

I

say

that

with

that

didn't

help

me

get

exposed

to

folk

music

for

sure.

I

take

a

lot

of

inspiration

from

folk

musicians

from

the

Carolinas

and

from

Kentucky.

Folks

like

banjo

players

like

Roscoe

Holcomb

and

Ola

Bell

Reed

who

are

from

kind

of

the

south.

That

there's

that

area.

It's

like

the

Blue

Ridge

Mount

is

like

southeast

Kentucky,

northeast

Tennessee

and

western

North

Carolina

all

meet

and

that

is

like

this

musical

in

American

history.

And

a

lot

of

the

music

that

I've

been

exposed

to

that's

kind

of

informed

what

I

do

is

from

there

though

I

need

to

add

that

lately

I've

been

listening

to

like

almost

solely

1970s

Texas

singer

songwriters.

There

you

go.

So

my

sound

is

fine.

Like

it's

fun

watching

things

shift.

But

the

like

music

of

Appalachia

is.

Is

something

that

I've

been

both

deeply

drawn

to.

I

learned

how

to

play

guitar

basically

by

learning

a

little

bit

cotton

songs.

It

was

from

outside

of

Asheville

or

I

think

she

was

from

outside

of.

She

lived

there

at

some

point.

I.

I

don't

wanna

not

a

historian.

I.

But

I

try

my

best.

We

won't

quote

you.

This

is.

This

is

the

Unholy

Union

podcast.

It's.

There's

a

lot

of,

you

know,

fake

news.

No,

I'm

just

kidding.

No.

Well,

I

guess

to

that

point

though

what

about

the

genre

is

drawing

you

in?

You're,

you

know,

you

say

that

the

folk

music

is

kind

of

what

you

are

drawn

to,

but

what

about

it

exactly

do

you

feel

is

drawing

you

in?

Yeah.

Why'd

you

choose

that

over

country?

Everything

else?

Well,

bluegrass.

Well,

I

have

lived

a

lot

this

thinking

mental

health

in

social

isolation

up

until

quite

recently.

And

so

folk

music

was

something

I

could

do

in

that

place

of

being

okay

and

by

alone.

Like

part

of

it's

a

self

like

it's

a

mix

of

like

not

having

folks

around

me

and

a

mix

of

maybe

self

sabotage

and

you

know,

keep

like

not

knowing

how

to

leave

that

state.

But

it

kind

of

like

suited

well

for

spending

a

lot

of

time

with

my

instruments.

And

then

part

of

it

is

I

always

kind

of

sang

in

this

way

that

I,

like,

really

threw

all

of

my

energy

into

it.

Like,

I

was

borderline

yelling

when

I

was

a

kid,

younger.

And

when

I

first

heard

Roscoe

Holcomb

sing

in

particular,

his

sound

is.

No,

they

refer

to

it

as

a

high

lonesome

sound.

It

kind

of

comes

from

the,

like,

a

church

tradition,

the

Pentecostal

Church

in

Appalachia.

And

the

way

that

they'd

sing

with

this,

like,

really

intense,

no

harmonic,

just

clear

notes.

Like,

probably

singing

an

octave

higher

than

you

would

suggest.

Most

people

sing,

and

it's

just

all

out.

And

it

was

something

that

I

was

kind

of

already

doing

on

my

own

to,

like,

many

people's

chagrin.

And

I

kind

of

found

a

way

into

play.

Like,

I

kind

of

saw

myself

reflected

back

to

me

in

that

music.

And

I've

been

learning

to

sing

more

quietly

and

nicely,

but

my

foundation

is

still

hollering

and

belt

it

out.

Yeah.

And

so,

like,

I

can

hear

my

sound

shifting

closer

to

a

countryish

sound.

And

that's

a

little

bit

because,

like,

I'm

obsessively

listening

to

Guy

Clark

for

the

last

year

and

a

half,

and

I

don't

know

if

you

listen

to

Guy

Clark

at

all,

but

that'll

do

it.

But.

But.

And

also,

like,

we're

in

this

moment

where

country

music

is,

like,

right

in

the

front

of

our,

like,

kind

of

mainstream

culture

right

now.

So

when

I

travel

around

to

play

music,

I'm

almost

exclusively.

Not

exclusively.

There's

plenty

of

non

country

folk

singers

who

are

fantastic,

who

are

doing

the

thing.

But

it's

a

lot

of

country

music.

And

so

that

exposure,

it's

funny,

we're

like,

in

this

moment

where

maybe,

like,

everyone

associates

banjo

with

bluegrass,

but

we're

in

this

moment

where

country

is,

like,

very

alive

and

vibrant.

So

I

think

we're

gonna

just

gonna

push

into

the

next

question.

Does

your

poetry

and

your

writing

feed

your

music?

Well,

it's

interesting

because,

like,

I'm

not

a

great.

I

wouldn't,

like,

classify

myself

as

being

a

spectacular

lyricist.

I've

been

very

proud

of

the

songs

I

write,

but

I

tend

to

just,

like,

pick

up

a

guitar

and

then

I'm

like,

strumming.

And

then

I

start

singing

something.

I'm

like,

that's

a

good

line.

And

then

a

whole

song

comes

out

of

it.

But

a

lot

of

the

poetry

just,

like,

talking

about

being,

like,

kind

of

on

this

spiritual

journey.

A

lot

of

my

poetry,

when

I.

I

used

to

write

a

lot

of

poems,

they're

generally,

like,

self

reflective.

A

lot

of

them

are,

like,

navigating

what

we

were

talking

about

earlier.

Like,

you

have

these

expectations

on

you

but

then

it's,

like,

negatively

impacting

health.

And

how

do

you,

like,

push

through

that

and.

Or

how

do

you

just,

like,

name

what's

happening?

Because

that's

one

of

the

things

that's

so

painful

about,

like,

mental

health

stuff

is

it's

hard

to

name

what's

going

on,

and

nobody

else

views

it

as

being

real,

and

you

barely

use

real.

But

I

went

down

academia,

rabbit

hole.

Got

a

PhD,

was

doing

a

postdoc.

I

didn't

write

a

word

for

five

or

six

years.

And

after

I

stopped

working,

I

just,

like,

something

happened

where

all

of

the

sudden,

like,

it

was

like,

I

could.

It

was

almost

nauseating.

I,

like,

couldn't

stop

writing.

And.

And

I

often

joke.

One

of

the,

like,

ways

I

like

to

describe

how

I

write

is

I

call

them,

or

we

kind

of

call

them

my,

like,

cow

in

the

field

moments.

Because

outside

of

our

house,

there's

a

pasture

where

there's

a

lot

of

cows.

And

while

I

was

working

my

postdoc,

I

was

watching

these

cows

one

day,

and

I

was

like,

these

cows

look

so

happy,

and

I'm

really

miserable

or

just,

like,

not.

Not

doing

that

great.

Like,

mentally,

I'm,

like,

very

anxious,

and

I'm

struggling.

In

this

valley

we

had,

we're

like

Nevada

desert,

mountains,

so

it's

all

sagebrush.

But

then

in

the

bottom

of

the

valley,

there's

water

accumulates

and

grass

grows.

And

I

just

had

this

thought

of,

like,

oh,

it's

because

their

environment

suits

them.

They're.

They're

in

a

field

of

grass.

They

probably

wouldn't

be

having

this

wonderful

existence.

They

were,

like,

on

top

of

that

mountain

over

there

where

it

snows

and

there's

no

grass.

We're

going

to

college.

Yeah.

Yeah,

exactly.

So

they

probably

walk

back

to

this

field

if

they

have

the

choice.

So

I

kind

of

like.

I

don't

know.

Like,

a

lot

of

my

writing

is

these,

like,

really

intense

feelings

I

get

in

that

moment.

The

intense

feeling

was,

like,

our

environment.

If

our

environment

doesn't

suit

us,

there's.

There's

little

chance

that

we're

gonna

thrive

or

we're

gonna

have

to

work

really

hard

to

thrive,

and

that

might

not

last

so

long.

And

so

a

lot

of

my

writing,

poetry

and

essays,

are

kind

of

like

me

grappling

with,

like,

my

own

spirituality.

I

think

it

kind

of

evolved

from,

like,

thinking

about

mental

health

and

how

to

live

well

into

being

more

explicitly

spiritual

in

nature.

And

that's

kind

of

what

I

bring

into

a

lot

of

my

sets

now,

in

between

songs,

is

just

kind

of.

I

don't

know.

Like,

a

lot

of

people

talk

about

society

and,

like,

what's

wrong

with

it?

Because

there's

apparently

a

lot

of

things

wrong

with

it.

You

just,

like,

watch

TV

or

listen

to

the

radio.

It's

very

clear.

And

like,

the

last

year

has

been

this

journey

of

just

being

like.

Well,

it

kind

of

feels

like

spirituality

and

not.

I'm

not

talking

about

religion

because

religion

can

be

a

space

for

spirituality,

but

it

just

feels

like

there's

no

explicit

spiritual

life

in

our

culture.

It's

like.

It's

almost

like.

I

don't

know

if

it's

even

now.

I'm

always

talking

about,

like,

my

spiritual

life.

So

I

don't

know

if

it's

like,

if

people

are

all

doing

that,

but

if

it's

like

what

it

was

like

before

I

was

always

talking

about

spirituality,

then

it's

just

like,

not

something

that's

like,

a

big

part

of

our

discourse

and

dialogue.

Especially

if

you

might

be

in

like,

a.

More

like.

Like,

I

was

like

a

liberally,

like,

we

believe

in

science

kind

of

space.

I

don't

know.

I

grew

up

around

friends

who

were

like,

atheist

is

cool.

And

I'm

not

trying

to

be

here

to.

Like,

is

proletized.

The

right

word,

evangelize

for

anything.

But

it's.

It's.

I

feel

like

a

lot

of

the.

There's

a

big

connection

between

these

dialogues

about

mental

health

and

lack

of

a

dialogue

around

spirituality.

Because

I.

I

think

spirituality

is

like

kind

of

this

art

of

being,

like,

aware

of

who

you

are

and

your.

Connection

with

the

world

around

you,

centered

and.

Yeah,

no,

I

totally

get

that.

My

wife

and

I,

we

always

talk

about

how

spiritual.

The

lack

of

spirituality

in

this

country,

it

has

to

have

something

to

do

with

mental

illness.

Because

to

me,

when

we

talk

about

spirituality,

I

think

about

religion.

And

we're

Christians.

And

I

always

think,

like,

my

belief

is

that

there's

something

after

so

that

gives

me

a

little

bit

of

medicine

towards

mental

health.

Because

I'm

like,

I

might

be

struggling

right

now,

but

I'm

not

going

to

be

struggling

forever.

Well,

and

I

think

we

also

talk

beyond

that

even

further

and

say

that

there's

also

a

morality

issue.

Yes.

Was

a

lot

of

place,

the

country

or

the

world

even.

And

if

we're

not

striving

to

find

our

own

morals

and

try

to

live

by

those,

it

doesn't

have

to

be

religion.

Right.

But

if

you

don't

have

any

morals,

then

what.

What

kind

of

society

do

you

live

in?

Right.

And

that.

That

goes

along

with

turning

that

TV

on.

It's

depressing

to

turn

the

TV

on

because

we

don't

have

morals.

And

morals

doesn't

like

you

just

said,

it

doesn't

have

to

be

a

religious

thing.

Just

be

a

good

person.

Find

the

person

that

is

you

and

then

live

it.

Right.

Like

you

don't

have

to

be

exactly

this

made

up

thing

or

live

by

any

certain

code

as

long

as

it

fits

you.

Right.

Like

it's

all

about

a

morality

you

can

live

by

that

fits

you.

Yes.

We

could

go

all

day.

Well,

you

know,

there's

like

two

themes

there

that

I

think

come

up.

And

one

is

like,

living

well

as

an

individual.

How

do

you

have

a

life

that

feels

good

to

live

and

that

you

feel

good

about

living.

And

then

there's

this

other

one

that's

like,

about

morality,

which

is

like,

how

do

we

interact

with

one

another?

And

just

trying

to

figure

out

where

to

go

with

it.

But

I've

been

thinking

a

lot.

I've

been

reading.

I

kind

of

started.

So

Judaism,

and

I

think

this

is

the

truth

with

a

lot

of

religions,

is

kind

of

a

book

club.

You,

you

pick

up

the

Old

Testament,

the

Torah,

at

the

beginning

of

the

year

and

you

read

the

whole

thing.

And

that's

what

a

year

is.

At

the

beginning

of

the

next

year,

you

read

it

again.

So

when

the

new

year

came

around

this

year,

I

started

reading

and

I

got

really.

I've

been

like.

I

feel

like

I've

been

getting

like

so

much

out

of

it

this

time

going

through.

And

I'm

not

doing

it

with

anybody

else

really,

you

know,

so

it

doesn't

feel

religious

so

much

as

my

thing

that's

happening.

But

I've

been

reading,

I

keep

reading

the

Sodom

and

Gomorrah

story

and

I'm

like,

very

convinced

that

it

has

a

lot

of

good

things

in

it.

And

I

just

wanted

to

share

one

of

those

because,

like,

I

feel

like

everyone

thinks

about

the

like,

sexual

depravity

aspect

of

that

story.

And

I,

I

don't

think

that's

really

the

point.

But

the

two

words

that

I

think

come

up

when

it

comes

to

morality

is

this

idea

of

righteousness

and

this

idea

of

wickedness.

And

I

think,

you

know,

we

live

in

such

a,

like,

I

don't

know,

lazy

time

where,

like,

righteous

means

good

and

wicked

means

evil

and

good

means

righteous

and

evil

means

wicked.

It's

like

we

don't

know

what

those

words

mean.

And

the

more

I

read

it,

I

feel

like

I'm

just

getting

this

feeling

of

like,

righteousness

and

goodness

is

just

living

a

life

that

fosters

life

around

you

and

that

sets

up

the

next

generation

for

that

too.

And

wickedness

is

just

everything

else.

It's

just

anything

that

doesn't

promote

life

and

doesn't

promote

life

across

generations.

I

was

listening

to

this

podcast,

podcast

where

they

were

talking

about

the

Iroquois

Confederacy,

which

was

like

the

very

awesome

government

that

the,

like

many

of

the

tribes

in

the

Northeast

had

before

the

bad

things

happened,

as

history

has

now.

But

there

was

a

concept

there

in

which

all

laws

that

were

passed

had

to

consider

seven

generations

in

the

future.

What

is

the

impact

of

this

law?

And

that,

that

sums

up

better

than

what

I

was

trying

to

say,

what

I've

been

getting

just

reading

the,

the

Bible

lately,

which

is

just

like.

And

I

think

a

lot

of

our

morality

is

just

like

missing

our

connection

with

each

other

and

missing

our

connection

with,

I

don't

know,

the

future.

And

it's,

it's

hyper

focused

on.

I

want

it

now.

Instant

gratification.

Yes.

Yes.

Yep.

With

0.0thought

about

what

that

can

do

later

on.

Absolutely.

Well,

I

mean,

that

kind

of

goes

into

our

next

question.

I

mean,

what

does.

What

do

you

feel

like

with

your

spiritual

journey

that

you're

on

right

now

and

all

the

things

that

are

essentially

feeding

your

inspiration?

Where

do

you

think

or

how

do

you

think

your

music

will

sound

within

the

next

five

years?

Where

do

you

think

your

music

will

take

you?

Whoa.

Well.

Well,

it's,

it's

gotten,

I

think,

a

lot

more

joyful

recently.

I've

been

putting

together

the

next

thing

I'm

working

on

and

I

do

a

lot

of

solo

recordings

I

would

love

to

be

able

to

bring

in.

I

have

a

lot

of

great

friends

who

are

awesome

musicians

who

have

gotten

to

play

shows

with

and

tour

with

and

I'd

really

love

to

do

something

because

everything

I've

done

so

far

is

just

kind

of

me.

And

that's

a

little

bit

a

product

of

the

style

I

play,

but

also

like

where

I

am

in

the

career

path.

I've

been

joking

and

not

joking,

but

like,

I

feel

like

peak

age

for

a

folk

musician

is

like

56

and

I'm

31.

So,

you

know,

there's

like,

there's

a

certain

function

of

how

much

support

do

you

have

to

like

create

art?

And

right

now

I'm

kind

of

in

this

space

where

creating

art

is

an

at

home

DIY

kind

of

thing

and

have

the

support

of

some

awesome

people

who've

really

helped

me

on

that

path.

But

the

things

I'm

making

right

now

are

kind

of

evolving

to

being

a

bit

more

joyful.

I

mentioned

my,

one

of

my

first

albums,

my

first

album

of

like

original

music

is

called

Unbecoming.

And

that's

just

like

navigating

mental

health

and

kind

of

this

unweaving

of

myself

from

expectations.

I

was

about

to.

I

was

about

to

ask

if

you've

read

the

Nietzsche

story

Bespoke

Zarathustra.

No,

I

can't.

I

can't

even

pronounce

that.

It's

okay.

Tell

us

more.

In

the

story,

there's

this,

like,

metamorphosis

in

which

you're

a

child,

but

then

as

life

kind

of

goes

on,

he

starts.

You

start

getting

the

weights

of

society

placed

on

your

back.

And

so

your

first

metamorphosis

is

you

become

the

camel.

And

as

the

camel,

you're

very

proud

of

yourself

for

all

of

the

expectations

you

can

carry.

And

then

when

you're

getting

a

little

bit

older,

you

start

realizing

all

these

expectations

and

weights

are

actually

quite

oppressive,

and

they

start

weighing

you

down,

and

you're

struggling

to

make

it

get

through

each

day.

And

then

you

kind

of

evolve,

and

you

realize

those

weights

are

actually

a

dragon,

and

you

have

to

kind

of

become

a

lion

and

fight

that

dragon.

And

that

album,

for

me,

was

about

kind

of.

Oh.

And

then

the

idea

is,

once

you

win

the

fight

with

the.

With

the

dragon,

you

get

to

be

yourself

again.

Like,

you

get

to

just

live

your

life

without

the

weight

of

expectations

of

other

people.

Right.

And

I

think

that's,

like,

a

journey

that

really

resonated

with

me.

Might

have

it,

like,

tattooed

on

me.

But

I

say

all

that

to

say

that

a

lot

of

my

early

songwriting

was,

like,

kind

of

intense

in

that

way.

Recording

error.

Open

recording

tab

to

learn

more.

It

looks

good

on

our

end.

I

got

a.

I

got

a.

Your

device

is

out

of

storage.

Well,

it's

still

recording,

right?

Yeah,

we're

still

good.

You

should

be

okay.

All

right.

Yeah.

So

anyway,

that

was

a

long

way

of

saying

a

lot

of

my

songwriting

was

coming

from

a

rather

intense,

introspective

place.

And

now

I'm.

I

feel

like

a

lot

of

my

writing

is

coming

from,

like,

I.

A

lot

of,

like,

joy

in

my

life.

So.

It's

been

a

fun

transition,

though.

I'm

grateful

for

what

I've

written

because

it

keeps

me

grounded.

I

think.

So.

Yeah.

So

I

wanted

to

ask

you

kind

of

how

the

industry

works

now,

because

I

don't

know

all

the

nitty

gritty.

Well,

you're

on

Spotify,

so

what

do

you

think?

I

know

there's

a

lot

of

musicians

out

there

that

think

Spotify

and

streaming

platforms

such

as

Spotify

are

kind

of

a

net

negative

for

the

music

industry.

What

do

you.

What

do

you

think

about

that?

Because

I

feel

like,

especially

with

small

artists,

that's

a

good

discovery

platform.

But

so

when

you

get

bit.

Because,

like,

I'll

just

say

her

Name

Swift.

I'm

pretty

sure

she's

not

a

big

fan

of

all

these

streaming

platforms.

I

can't

remember,

but

I

feel

like

she

may

have

gotten

into

TIFF

with

Apple

music

for

streaming

and

things

of

that

nature.

Yeah,

I.

I

don't

know

a

lot

about

her

story.

I

think

she

is

doing

well

enough

that,

like,

I

don't

know

if

I.

It's

not

that

I

just.

I

don't

care.

Like

I.

For

sure.

I'm

just

saying,

like,

for.

For

somebody

like

yourself.

Do

you

see

Spotify

and

their

business

model

of.

So

I

don't

know,

I

read

somewhere

that

there's

pin

they

pay

you

pennies

per

play

or

something

like

that.

But

you

know,

I

mean,

it's

less

than.

It's

a

less

than

a

penny

per

play.

That

being

said,

I

probably

am

in.

I

don't

know

what

percentage

of

musicians

are

vocal

because,

you

know,

it's

like

very.

A

lot

of

people

are

fighting

for

better

pay

for

musicians.

And

then

there's

things

like

merch